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Author Topic: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée  (Read 1571202 times)

origamiscienceguy

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13920 on: March 09, 2016, 12:19:19 am »

Once again, piss-poor night for Rubio
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smjjames

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13921 on: March 09, 2016, 12:21:48 am »

I'll bet one internet that Rubio comes in third or less in Hawaii.
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RedKing

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13922 on: March 09, 2016, 12:26:06 am »

« Last Edit: March 09, 2016, 12:27:51 am by RedKing »
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HAMMERMILL

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13923 on: March 09, 2016, 12:30:50 am »

Not to argue either, but I'm in the 'Anyone but Clinton or Bush' camp. Luckily Bush dropped out.

First of all, the USA doesn't need dynasties, or landed gentry trading power between terms. This isn't a monarchy and it surely doesn't need to resemble one. I resent the idea of a Clinton presidency on this alone.

Also, Clinton supporters like to talk about all the jobs she's had. She's been objectively awful or mediocre at every single one of them. She accomplished basically nothing as a senator in NY. She couldn't even get support from other democrats to sponsor her unambitious bills. Her most notable action in office was voting in favor of the Iraq War. At secretary of State she was the architect for the overthrow of the Libyan government and that nation's decline into chaos and ruin. She is a danger to the world. I mean, at least Donald Trump spent his previous career building things, Clinton has spent hers eagerly smashing things into rubble, yet Trump is apparently the next Hitler. I dunno if that is incompetence, lack of foresight, or malign intent, she's hawkish and in a kinda dumb way.

She is essentially a neocon marketed as a liberal. She's funded by massive donations from corporations and banks. She's a bought and paid for lackey for people almost certainly not the common person's best interests.

I don't even like her speech patterns... she shouts in monotone and enunciates all the syllables in a word evenly and fakes a southern accent depending on the audience. I could go on.

I think she'll win the election though. I just hope she's as ineffective as President as she was in every other office she's held.
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Vector

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13924 on: March 09, 2016, 12:42:59 am »

That is a reasonable argument, which I appreciate. I'll be thinking about what you've said.

(I'm not especially interested in arguments about tone of voice. Due to some difficulty understanding auditory information I get all of my data from transcripts. But, point taken.)


On the topic of Trump, it's really about his supporters actually going and beating people of color and Sieg Heiling and stuff like that. I had a step-grandmother in the Hitler Youth, which has strongly informed my point of view on these things. I'm not using the datapoint "Hitler" as Maximum Evil (godwinning), I'm trying to use it as... literally Hitler. The neo-Nazis are flocking to him. That is really, really gross. There's other gross people out there, but dude, Nazis.

There's other fascists out there, other oppressive regimes, other horrors. But when I am talking about Trump and Hitler, I actually am trying to make a comparison to Fascist Germany in particular, which is a data point that we should avoid. We should also avoid anyone similar to Chairman Mao or Stalin, but I frankly don't know as much about the features of these people's dictatorships.

So, if there's another historical figure that you think Clinton reminds you of (Margaret Thatcher, Merkel, etc.), then I can agree that we should say "hm, we've done that before and it was a bad idea."

But I have very strong feelings about a certain set of behaviors, having seen some of the aftermath close up with my own eyes.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2016, 12:47:45 am by Vector »
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RedKing

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13925 on: March 09, 2016, 12:49:52 am »

re: Libya, there were a lot of people (myself included) cheering for the Libyan rebels. And while there were a few voices saying "Umm, what's going to fill the void?" it was difficult to elaborate on that point without sounding like an apologist for Qaddafi and being opposed to ordinary people fighting back with everything (and I mean EVERYTHING) at their disposal. It was hard not to cheer for them.


Yeah, with the benefit of hindsight, it would have been better to try and broker something. Or work much closer with the Libyan rebel groups to keep things from going to shit as soon as they took over and ran out of bad guys to shoot.
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Descan

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13926 on: March 09, 2016, 01:05:46 am »

Little-known fact: WWII came about because Hitler heard a little voice saying "You must construct additional pylons".
And Germany had a shit-ton of worker drones just sitting around, so...
I'm now imagining Jews settling down into a carpet of living flesh and turning into giant Nazi factories or something.
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misko27

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13927 on: March 09, 2016, 01:07:07 am »

First of all, the USA doesn't need dynasties, or landed gentry trading power between terms. This isn't a monarchy and it surely doesn't need to resemble one. I resent the idea of a Clinton presidency on this alone.
This is simply a silly objection that I've heard a million times and I hated it each time. I'm sorry, but I just don't get it, and it seems like a recent invention of an argument. Given the fact that Presidents with Presidents as relatives is a tradition going back the John Adams (and his son, John Quincy Adams), we know democracy can survive relatives in office, even when the democracy was a lot younger (you might say "fresher", I'd say "more fragile). What about Teddy Roosevelt and FDR? Or, you know, Bush Sr. and Jr. who were actually President? I mean  objections based on the vague notion that two people elected into office bearing the same last name (or even being father and son, or husband and wife) will resemble a monarchy are sort of arbitrary. If this is a concern, I argue that its a concern that has already been fulfilled as completely as it could ever be by people like the Kennedys, rather then a single-generation marriage.

My biggest personal issues are Having a Non-Fascist Government, abortion rights, Guantanamo Bay, and income equality (especially reworking the federal minimum wage), in that order. After that there's a lot of other things like climate change, carcerality, no more drone wars, trans rights, and stuff.
Hmm. That's interesting. I never thought about including things like "non-fascist government" in my list of issues. Hmm. I don't know where I'd even put it. I mean, I assume I'd put it at the front, but what else would I put, and where? Would I include things like not adopting Communism? Socialism? And where would those go? Is there an issue I have that's more important then one of these? Hmm. I will have to think further about this. I don't have a personal list in my head of my top issues, but I feel like I should create one.

Also hi.
Little-known fact: WWII came about because Hitler heard a little voice saying "You must construct additional pylons".
And Germany had a shit-ton of worker drones just sitting around, so...
I'm now imagining Jews settling down into a carpet of living flesh and turning into giant Nazi factories or something.
That's not the most far-off analogy unfortunately.
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Descan

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13928 on: March 09, 2016, 01:13:55 am »

Yeah, I hesitated on hitting post because it's a little... TOO similar to what actually happened. :/
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WealthyRadish

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13929 on: March 09, 2016, 01:22:59 am »

I'd say Nazi Germany is terran, USSR is zerg, and the US is protoss. Most people would probably put Germany and the US the other way around, but it makes sense. Germany's got the flying buildings they relocate when they get bombed to crap, and the US just spends the whole war warping in endless batches of men and material across the vacuum of space.
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RedKing

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13930 on: March 09, 2016, 01:25:28 am »

Yeah, but US (then) = cheap and expendable troops (and big dakka) and Germany = relatively expensive troops that hurt when you lose them (the loss of experienced troops hurt more than just the loss of numbers as the war went on).
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Remember, knowledge is power. The power to make other people feel stupid.
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Reelya

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13931 on: March 09, 2016, 01:37:21 am »

I was checking out Clinton's view on income equality, and came across an interesting thing. Critics claimed that she was underpaying female staffers, at 72 cents to the male's dollar. Other sources have fact-checked the claims, and disputed the findings:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/22/hillary-clinton-gender-pay-gap_n_7117620.html

The data was distorted since it omitted people who didn't work the full year, and when you include those people, then Clinton paid men and women the same - there is no pay gap. The data source is the same but the conclusions are very different based on the methodology used. So we should take the Clinton figures as the true figures.

That's all well and good, but then there's a bit at the end: the research group making the original criticism of Clinton point out that they used the same methodology which is normally applied to get the "women earn 77 cents in the dollar compared to men" figure: excluding all non-full-time employees. The exact same reasoning with which this other research group is criticized as "distorting" Clinton's record on gender pay is a normal part of how we derive the gender gap in the first place.

So, this sort of reeks of hypocrisy. We can't really endorse how the 77 cents in the dollar figure is derived, while at the same time picking and choosing what methodology we will accept when it comes back to bite someone on our own side of politics: if we use the exact same criteria as the "77 cents" figure on Clinton's employees and it comes back to say that she has a gender-gap according to that criteria, then she has a gender gap: if we allow the "yeah, but..." for Clinton, we need to apply that same caveat for the overall gender gap too, if it is to be a fair comparison.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2016, 01:41:58 am by Reelya »
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Reelya

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13932 on: March 09, 2016, 02:26:24 am »

There's other fascists out there, other oppressive regimes, other horrors. But when I am talking about Trump and Hitler, I actually am trying to make a comparison to Fascist Germany in particular, which is a data point that we should avoid. We should also avoid anyone similar to Chairman Mao or Stalin, but I frankly don't know as much about the features of these people's dictatorships.

I definitely know a lot more about Stalin than I do about Mao. I recommend Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's work The Gulag Archipelago, to get a feeling for the USSR in that era. Nikita Khrushchev, who followed after Stalin was actually from the moderate faction. He dismantled much of the state terror machine that had characterized the Stalin era, and enacted liberal reforms and more cultural freedom. A few years later Khrushchev was publicly criticized and ousted from power by the hardline faction under Brezhnev. Khrushchev maintained that the very fact that you could criticize the leader, without fear of getting whisked off to the death camps, was a big part of his legacy. Brezhnev then proceeded to roll back a lot of Khrushchev's reforms and create his own Stalin-like cult of personality.  Gorbachev and others who presided over the glasnost/perestroika era had all come of age during the relatively free and open Khrushchev era, and their rise was a kick back against the communist hardliners who had ousted Khrushchev. But now it's gone full circle and you have an ex-KGB hardliner running the country again. But hey, Putin came of age during the Brezhnev years, so we can hope that the next generation of Russian leaders - who grew up in the Gorbachev years, will be better.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2016, 02:57:41 am by Reelya »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13933 on: March 09, 2016, 04:26:23 am »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Damn straight. People are forgetting that when Obama needed something done on the world stage in Libya or Ukraine he went to Clinton to get it done, and her Benghazi scandal she recovered in remarkable time with dignity and composure. And instead of attacking her policies, people say she is nothing more than a puppet for her donors; can it not be that a woman seeks donors for her policies, and is not just an extension of wealthy multinational men? One thing I would say is that I think Clinton is giving up real power by seeking to become president, as anything that goes wrong will become blamed on her (thanks Obama) but best of luck you know, she is certainly a competent executor of foreign policy (even if her advisors like Kissinger will need replacement).

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
One of the interesting criticisms that runs about is that these politicians only ever use identity politics to shield from real criticism with more "it's the current year" platitudes that consume public dialogue. That may be, there's big cheese going down in Israel for example with LGBT who furiously believe they are being used as a shield for military operations, and Obama started his LGBT campaign when Snowden went public - but the whole marriage equality thing, even if it was being used as a shield it worked didn't it? If you enact good policy even if only for a shield you've still done good, for example Israel is no Saudi Arabia on LGBT issues.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
How can Clinton tackle that? Sounds like a chasm to bridge

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
To be fair this is also the num num who said the 19 million Americans living in poverty are physically incapable of experiencing poverty because of their race

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Aye, showing up to activist marches because you're bored and getting attacked by police because they don't ask you whether you believe in whatever cause is being marched for before assessing you are part of the giant mob in front of their thin blue line. Though fair on him he was not just a participant, dude was organizing the protests, which should go more towards showing commitment as before social media appeared starting marches required some effort.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
And we return to the void of Godwin
I'm surprised you don't register religious minorities already, though that might be because the UK wrote the (Domesday) book on recording the fuck out of everything and is obsessed with social control on a level only China has us beat on, though that might just be because the control is very subtle.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I've not seen that, I've seen the neo-nazis hate him because of his Jewish and Russian family, and his policies being inclusive of all Americans instead of exclusive to white Americans. I've seen ethnic nationalists and outside of Africa, the ME and East Asia, where the common uniter is poverty and instability, the only place in the Western world it's dangerously close to seizing power is Greece, united by poverty and instability. This is very different, Trump is a sovereign nationalist capitalizing on the disaffected people who live in the most powerful nation on the planet yet see everyone else taking advantage of them or cowing to PC narratives so needlessly. And I'm not talking Democrats in particular, only in general, for the Republicans what have they achieved despite being voted again and again for by their constituents? Nothing. Utter waste. One thing I am glad about is that ethnic nationalism is very much dead, and ironically I think cultural marxists and sovereign nationalists killed it together. One of the interesting things about that old "I can tolerate anything but the outgroup" thing that gets tossed around every now and then is the issue of how ideological belief separates more than race, leading to that most MOISTURIZING of situations where our progressive left tried to enact ethnic changes as a policy believing that by creating new immigrant underclasses they would create a solid powerbase from which they'd be unchallenged, when in reality they brought in massive immigrant conservative groups who in turn linked up with the sovereign nationalists who in turn robbed support from the ethnic nationalists from people who wanted something less extreme. And I'm all for that, I'm seeing all these various white far-right groups finally giving up their dogmatic notions of supremacy with this hilarious decay where they'd be ok with buggery, druggery, thuggery and degeneracy as long as it was white. Now? After the rise of problem hair and great decay (a fair bit of cultural enrichment no doubt remiss) they're finally maturing and realizing if their country descends into decrepit wastes being white is no consolation, whereas if their country becomes great again not being white is little of value lost; it's just an expressed allele. Sovereign nationalists have been the nail in the coffin for ethnic nationalists in Europe, I want to see that happen in America too, racial purity fails if all it makes in the pursuit of it is pure shite. Make a good country where everything is prosperous, the people aren't beheaded by jihadis or their children sticking opium in their veins and shots in their eyes, the government isn't trying to dictate and indoctrinate and you create god damn heaven on Earth.

The mindset of Mao or Stalin's dictatorship is also quite easy to grasp as it's just Marxism-Leninism and Marxism-Leninism-Maoism, framing everything in class struggles, mobilizing the peasantry into destroying bourgeoisie scum, only to find out after killing 180 million innocent people you fucked up (well, you just kill some patsies and say they fucked up). MLM maintains that even after socialism has won, one must have strong centralized government to control people to root out "corruption" and "bourgeoisie elements" through supervision and revolutionary mass mobilization. I always find it funny that Stalin removed whole races of people he thought unloyal successfully whilst Hitler failed to remove one. Purges, expulsions, forced displacements, imprisonment in labor camps, manufactured famines, torture, mass murder and massacres all to remove dissident elements, Stalin solved the USSR's overpopulation issue far more efficiently than Hitler ever did, with 2 million dead a year, even during peace time. It is incredibly painful to me how China in 10 years of "cultural revolution" did more irreparable damage to their culture, people and country than the century of humiliation when Western and Japanese powers dictated the fate of the Empire of China, a state of powerlessness that had not been seen since the Mongols invaded. Most worrying of all is how much of it was driven by really enthusiastic students, the red guard, who banded together to criticize authorial figures and destroy anything of cultural value as "bourgeoisie". Religion, philosophy, literature, academia, history, students were used to destroy any opposition to the leadership and they did it from the ground level up, believing they were fighting oppression they delivered the most terrifying eradication of Chinese culture and when the killings and torture began, Chinese people. Anger at foreigners was also expressed in less than articulate ways. So I see today where bands of students die their hairs and maintain their own cultures and religions are ideological evils that must be banished to destroy capitalism, rich kids destroying war memorials, attacking Jews, Turks and Arabs for the crimes of their governments, "deconstructing" Western science and culture - and I see we're back in that box again. I see white people calling black Americans a stupid race because some of them voted for Trump or calling Latin Americans race traitors for voting him in Nevada and I see we're back in that box again. There is nothing I fear more than a person who destroys with a smile on their face with an inability to look in the mirror, though that must be my genes speaking. My family aren't descended from fascists, they're descended from liberals and communists, one of whom was a Maoist official who was about to be purged when he caught wind of it and fled, the gov wrongly believing he had died. And on the liberal side one of them nearly got KGB'd. State security bureaus are not as much of an existential threat though as wiping out the oppressive elements. And the oppressive elements? I mean, I'm looking at this topsy turvy world in the UK where rich aristocrats and bureaucrats laugh at working class men or gang rape victims because they're low on the progressive stack, the cognitive dissonance is painful. For this reason I only support communists when I want accelerationism and I don't buy feels = fire, because tone policing is yet another weapon to destroy people for things they are not.

We saw the same thing at Obama rallies.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It's just a simple, effective way to get the crowd pumped up and involved. Building energy at these things is good.
OBAMA NAZIS indeed

MarcAFK

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13934 on: March 09, 2016, 07:53:35 am »

Jesus LW, I can't follow you when you give sane reasoned argument like this!
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