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Author Topic: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée  (Read 1578700 times)

TheBiggerFish

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Re: Ted Cruz's Adult Coloring Book and Chill 2016 Megathread
« Reply #11790 on: February 15, 2016, 01:26:32 am »

You're allowed to waive your rights though.
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Powder Miner

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Re: Ted Cruz's Adult Coloring Book and Chill 2016 Megathread
« Reply #11791 on: February 15, 2016, 01:30:02 am »

(i actually have genuinely no idea how courts work for misdemeanors)
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TheBiggerFish

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Re: Ted Cruz's Adult Coloring Book and Chill 2016 Megathread
« Reply #11792 on: February 15, 2016, 01:31:09 am »

(Neither do I)
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It has been determined that Trump is an average unladen swallow travelling northbound at his maximum sustainable speed of -3 Obama-cubits per second in the middle of a class 3 hurricane.

DoctorMcTaalik

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Re: Ted Cruz's Adult Coloring Book and Chill 2016 Megathread
« Reply #11793 on: February 15, 2016, 02:02:47 am »

FYI...Alex Jones has it on good authority ("his gut"...and maybe the fillings in his teeth) that Scalia was assassinated. If so, then I can genuinely say,

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Man has quite the gut. Guts that size don't lie.
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smjjames

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Re: Ted Cruz's Adult Coloring Book and Chill 2016 Megathread
« Reply #11794 on: February 15, 2016, 02:24:47 am »

FYI...Alex Jones has it on good authority ("his gut"...and maybe the fillings in his teeth) that Scalia was assassinated. If so, then I can genuinely say,

Spoiler (click to show/hide)





Who's Alex Jones? *looks at wiki*. Oh right, the conspiracy theorist guy.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2016, 02:32:44 am by smjjames »
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mainiac

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Re: Ted Cruz's Adult Coloring Book and Chill 2016 Megathread
« Reply #11795 on: February 15, 2016, 07:09:40 am »

You're allowed to waive your rights though.

In the interactions I've had with the courts you are assumed to waive the courts and they discourage not doing so.
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
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"Don't tell me what you value. Show me your budget and I will tell you what you value"
« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

penguinofhonor

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Re: Ted Cruz's Adult Coloring Book and Chill 2016 Megathread
« Reply #11796 on: February 15, 2016, 07:50:59 am »


Most union protections are because unions have huge inherent disadvantages against employers. If people don't have to join the union and don't have to pay any non-union fines, then the best scenario for any worker is to stay out of the union but let them negotiate to improve everyone's situation. That way you reap the benefits without having to pay anything in.

The thing is, this encourages people to leave unions, especially active and successful ones. It can cripple their bargaining power and leave all the workers in a worse place.
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Bauglir

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Re: Ted Cruz's Adult Coloring Book and Chill 2016 Megathread
« Reply #11797 on: February 15, 2016, 10:25:45 am »

That sounds like it'd be some game in game theory. Prisoner's Dilemma-esque
That is the literal reasoning, yes. The point of mandatory membership is that union negotiations depend on workers being united in their actions (hence the name). An employee who isn't required to contribute or required to strike when the rest of them do undermines the union's ability to do its job. Think of it as a tax, not a fine.
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Shadowlord

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Re: Ted Cruz's Adult Coloring Book and Chill 2016 Megathread
« Reply #11798 on: February 15, 2016, 10:31:40 am »

Does the cost of the trial by jury equal more than the $100 cost of the ticket? After all, jury deliberations take more than a day, and they need housing and other accommodations while under the care of the court system. The plaintiff can still request a judge's ruling on the decision should they choose. In the case of misdemeanors or civil suits, I'd say that the minimum bar for a trial by jury would be that the damages in question amount to at least the cost of the jury trial. For misdemeanors, this is specifically those tied to fines (which most are).

Do you mean the jurors or the lucky ticket-holders?

Around here they have you come in for jury duty (hope you have a car since it's halfway across the state and there are no buses or trains from nowherevilles), and then you sit for a few hours, and then they dismiss you without selecting you for a trial, and then you have to drive back across the state.

If they select you for a trial, it doesn't last more than a day.

If it does last more than a day, they don't have housing for you, they just require you to come back every day. And maybe you want to get a hotel room instead of driving back and forth, but you don't know you'll need to until you've finished that day's jury duty, and you don't know how long the trial will go, either!

If you meant the ticketed person, "they need housing and other accommodations while under the care of the court system" is an odd way to say "throwing the ticket-holder in jail," which is a thing that happens (particularly when they have a warrant for unpaid tickets, generally because they're too poor to pay, they need to use their money to pay rent, utilities, maybe to eat if they don't have food stamps or they don't cover enough, etc, and the tickets keep accruing interest while they're unpaid, etc).
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mainiac

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Re: Ted Cruz's Adult Coloring Book and Chill 2016 Megathread
« Reply #11799 on: February 15, 2016, 11:45:03 am »

So I think that the example of juries for speeding tickets shows that making things difficult for strangers overrides your rights in some situations.  Is that a fair conclusion?
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
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[CAN_INTERNET]
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"Don't tell me what you value. Show me your budget and I will tell you what you value"
« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

TheBiggerFish

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Re: Ted Cruz's Adult Coloring Book and Chill 2016 Megathread
« Reply #11800 on: February 15, 2016, 11:54:36 am »

It's more like, you should be considerate and shouldn't have a trial that costs more than the ticket.
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It has been determined that Trump is an average unladen swallow travelling northbound at his maximum sustainable speed of -3 Obama-cubits per second in the middle of a class 3 hurricane.

TheBiggerFish

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Re: Ted Cruz's Adult Coloring Book and Chill 2016 Megathread
« Reply #11801 on: February 15, 2016, 11:58:13 am »

Yep.
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It has been determined that Trump is an average unladen swallow travelling northbound at his maximum sustainable speed of -3 Obama-cubits per second in the middle of a class 3 hurricane.

Lord Shonus

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Re: Ted Cruz's Adult Coloring Book and Chill 2016 Megathread
« Reply #11802 on: February 15, 2016, 01:58:36 pm »

To be fair, if the union wasn't around you would be making significantly less (presuming that the company pays union and non-union members the same) anyways.
I'll be upfront here and admit I'm not part of the workplace at all -- still a high schooler and a dependent, I don't need to support my family, and I don't tend to spend a lot of money.
So, yeah, I actually don't have a personal stake in this, which probably does weaken my argument.
Still... I WILL have a job soon enough, since I'm not getting paid through college, that's for sure.

In that case, let me explain something to you. The highest union dues I've ever paid was 20 cents an hour. For that 20 cents, I recieved a much higher wage and had the priveliege of working in a place where OSHA, FMLA, overtime laws, and every other workers protection act actually applied - since in a non-union shop you can be summarily terminated at any time for any reason, your legal rights and protections are virtually nonexistant.
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Bauglir

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Re: Ted Cruz's Adult Coloring Book and Chill 2016 Megathread
« Reply #11803 on: February 15, 2016, 02:16:00 pm »

since in a non-union shop you can be summarily terminated at any time for any reason, your legal rights and protections are virtually nonexistant.
And just to expound this a bit more - this is exactly what you should expect. Every foundation of our economy rests on the assumptions that make this inevitable. A business is a tool for generating profit for its owners, and anything else it does is secondary. You are going to be treated as an expendable resource. Unions are how workers make it a net loss to expend you, because that's the only way you can rationally expect any organization to care.

If your job security isn't constantly in jeopardy, the free market isn't working properly. That's what it means for supply and demand to apply to labor. Otherwise, either your boss is too soft-hearted to compete (most likely in a small, niche business), your particular skillset is so rare that you can't be replaced (most likely in a small, niche business), or there is some structural force that gives you bargaining power (most likely a union).

I'm not saying you can't be a capitalist, of course. If that sounds like a fair price to pay for whatever benefits you ascribe to the system, Powder Miner, by all means. I just want to be sure you understand the implications, among which are that job security is a failing of the free market.
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Strife26

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Re: Ted Cruz's Adult Coloring Book and Chill 2016 Megathread
« Reply #11804 on: February 15, 2016, 02:28:22 pm »

To be fair, if the union wasn't around you would be making significantly less (presuming that the company pays union and non-union members the same) anyways.
I'll be upfront here and admit I'm not part of the workplace at all -- still a high schooler and a dependent, I don't need to support my family, and I don't tend to spend a lot of money.
So, yeah, I actually don't have a personal stake in this, which probably does weaken my argument.
Still... I WILL have a job soon enough, since I'm not getting paid through college, that's for sure.

In that case, let me explain something to you. The highest union dues I've ever paid was 20 cents an hour. For that 20 cents, I recieved a much higher wage and had the priveliege of working in a place where OSHA, FMLA, overtime laws, and every other workers protection act actually applied - since in a non-union shop you can be summarily terminated at any time for any reason, your legal rights and protections are virtually nonexistant.

Yes, all legal regulations on workplaces apply only to union shops and the only reason why a company doesn't fire anyone every moment of the day is because da union is fighting for the worker's rights.





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