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Author Topic: Horrified seeing a goblin die  (Read 13128 times)

Dwarf4Explosives

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Re: Horrified seeing a goblin die
« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2015, 08:56:06 am »

To be honest, I think that the main problem with this is that it clashes with the characterization we've come to expect of DF dwarves: uncaring and cynical (both responses that make sense considering the world they live in), yet very, very stupid. I know it's more realistic if we assume dwarves have similar thoughts to those of humans, but it kind of ruins the fun if they get all freaked out over it, and I care more about the game being fun than about the game being realistic.
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And yet another bit of proof that RNG is toying with us. We do 1984, it does animal farm
...why do your hydras have two more heads than mine? 
Does that mean male hydras... oh god dammit.

Urist McVoyager

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Re: Horrified seeing a goblin die
« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2015, 09:13:55 am »

What we've come to expect is . . . nothing. The game is so deep in Alpha it could be twenty years before the Beta version comes out. In all that time, it's going to become unrecognizable. The goal here is to create a fantasy world generator that, outside of the magic, creates realistic worlds. So all that cold, uncaring, idioticness we've come to expect is a placeholder for something much deeper. We're in the growing pains, so we're going to run into bugs like this.

Also, we all know by now that it's the Entity that matters, not the species. That dead goblin you see could easily have become a captive, who gets sold into slavery, and has children who become full fledged citizens of your civ. That makes even the enemies into something worth pitying.

So yes, the only bug here is the lack of separation between seeing the corpse and seeing the kill happen.
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Kamamura

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Re: Horrified seeing a goblin die
« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2015, 10:14:05 am »

It's basically a thin borderline of planned features surrounding a territory of partially implemented and barely functional features, riddled with bugs, inconsistencies and "to be done later" signposts. Finishing it would not only ruin everything, but isn't technically possible at all, it's not even possible to define what "finishing" such a project could possibly mean. Dwarf fortress is basically an update to the old Cartesian axiom of "Cogito ergo sum" to "I think I could glimpse what I could be given enough time, if only I was able".
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The entire content consists of senseless murder, a pile of faceless naked women and zero regard for human life in general, all in the service of the protagonist's base impulses. It is clearly a cry for help from a neglected, self absorbed and disempowered juvenile badly in need of affectionate guidance. What a sad, sad display.

utunnels

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Re: Horrified seeing a goblin die
« Reply #33 on: January 09, 2015, 11:11:14 am »

Well maybe the message should be "seeing a dead <corpse of a sentient being>". Same thing happens when there's a minotaur corpse.

Not a big problem to me. In real life, most people are at least disturbed by humanoid corpses(not those from movies or TV shows, since you know they are fake).

I usually let dorfs haul the corpses to the atomsmasher room as soom as possible. Some of them may get horrified but they'll forgot about that eventually.

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The troglodyte head shakes The Troglodyte around by the head, tearing apart the head's muscle!

Risen Asteshdakas, Ghostly Recruit has risen and is haunting the fortress!

Headless

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Re: Horrified seeing a goblin die
« Reply #34 on: January 09, 2015, 12:38:49 pm »

It would help if saw die and saw dead were claified

Goes back to my suggestion to be able to properly bury the bodies of enemies.   

Soldiers dont like seeing bodies. 

Soldiers are under more stress than civilians.  If you have a big pile of refuse and corpses and your dwarfs have to the empty staring eyes of a goblin or ettin half covered in muscle shells every time they have to throw away some withered plump helmets eventually some one is going to come completely apart.

More likely to be a soldier than civilian.   Precisely because they have see more death.

.
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Eldin00

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Re: Horrified seeing a goblin die
« Reply #35 on: January 09, 2015, 03:10:08 pm »

Just to throw in my 2 cents on the subject, I think it's perfectly reasonable that dwarves should have a negative response to seeing a goblin die, or to seeing a goblin corpse. I also think it's reasonable that the reaction to seeing a death should have tiers of severity (ie. friendly > neutral > hostile). I definitely agree that the negative thoughts for seeing the event of death should be different than those for seeing a corpse.
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Urist McVoyager

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Re: Horrified seeing a goblin die
« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2015, 01:19:32 am »

It's basically a thin borderline of planned features surrounding a territory of partially implemented and barely functional features, riddled with bugs, inconsistencies and "to be done later" signposts. Finishing it would not only ruin everything, but isn't technically possible at all, it's not even possible to define what "finishing" such a project could possibly mean. Dwarf fortress is basically an update to the old Cartesian axiom of "Cogito ergo sum" to "I think I could glimpse what I could be given enough time, if only I was able".

Toady already has a definition for his endgame. 100 Power Goals. Many of those goals have been listed on the Dev page for us to see. At least they were. I don't remember if they're currently there. I was just reacting to someone talking about what we've come to expect, as if that's anywhere close to what we're supposed to get when we reach Toady's desired end point. It isn't. This is never likely to be completely Magically Realistic, but it's going to be a damn sight closer to reality, and more complex, than it already is.
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Detros

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Re: Horrified seeing a goblin die
« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2015, 06:29:50 am »

It's basically a thin borderline of planned features surrounding a territory of partially implemented and barely functional features, riddled with bugs, inconsistencies and "to be done later" signposts. Finishing it would not only ruin everything, but isn't technically possible at all, it's not even possible to define what "finishing" such a project could possibly mean. Dwarf fortress is basically an update to the old Cartesian axiom of "Cogito ergo sum" to "I think I could glimpse what I could be given enough time, if only I was able".

Toady already has a definition for his endgame. 100 Power Goals. Many of those goals have been listed on the Dev page for us to see. At least they were. I don't remember if they're currently there. I was just reacting to someone talking about what we've come to expect, as if that's anywhere close to what we're supposed to get when we reach Toady's desired end point. It isn't. This is never likely to be completely Magically Realistic, but it's going to be a damn sight closer to reality, and more complex, than it already is.
There is this outdated list and this current overview. Note only green or blue colour means that goal is fully done.
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Col_Jessep

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Re: Horrified seeing a goblin die
« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2015, 02:07:12 pm »

I just wanted to say that yes, most humans are disturbed by seeing dead bodies - but we are talking about dwarfs here.

Dwarfs are not just smaller humans, they are truly different. Maybe dwarfs have completely different emotional triggers than humans. Maybe they are like cats and dogs: Similar body shape but entirely different behavior otherwise.

Well, at least I would like it a lot if dwarfs were actually notably different from humans in emotions, culture and thoughts. Why play as dwarfs in the first place if they were just small humans?
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Urist McVoyager

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Re: Horrified seeing a goblin die
« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2015, 03:24:42 pm »

They already are different. For most people, seeing a dead body is like a trainwreck. You see it, you can't look away until it's carted off or you throw up, you do a bit of soul searching, you move on.

A dwarf sees a dead body and it breaks down completely.
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SirQuiamus

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Re: Horrified seeing a goblin die
« Reply #40 on: January 10, 2015, 05:39:41 pm »

They already are different. For most people, seeing a dead body is like a trainwreck. You see it, you can't look away until it's carted off or you throw up, you do a bit of soul searching, you move on.

A dwarf sees a dead body and it breaks down completely.
I just wanted to say that yes, most humans are disturbed by seeing dead bodies - but we are talking about dwarfs here.

Dwarfs are not just smaller humans, they are truly different. Maybe dwarfs have completely different emotional triggers than humans. Maybe they are like cats and dogs: Similar body shape but entirely different behavior otherwise.

Well, at least I would like it a lot if dwarfs were actually notably different from humans in emotions, culture and thoughts. Why play as dwarfs in the first place if they were just small humans?
I once saw a dead body on the sidewalk: It was just an old man, probably had a heart attack, no big deal.
Then, I once saw one of my carpenters puking at the sight of a goblin corpse (on a completely trivial hauling job, presumably). He kept vomiting for months, just staring at his wheelbarrow without moving an inch. These moments are, doubtlessly, the ones that make DF truly unique
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Uronym

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Re: Horrified seeing a goblin die
« Reply #41 on: January 10, 2015, 06:52:19 pm »

I once saw one of my carpenters puking at the sight of a goblin corpse (on a completely trivial hauling job, presumably). He kept vomiting for months, just staring at his wheelbarrow without moving an inch. These moments are, doubtlessly, the ones that make DF truly unique

Now that dwarves are considerably more emotionally stable, the tantrum spirals of old are over. Now we will have something more interesting...

Corpse dominoes!

Dwarf A dies for whatever reason.
Dwarf B sees A's body, and, frozen by horror, vomits on the floor for a few months and dies.
Dwarf C comes to clean up, but is so horrified by A and B's corpses that the shock is fatal.
Dwarf D is hardier, and seeing A, B and C dead, only passes out and dies from dehydration.
Dwarf E comes to see where everyone went; but becomes so psychologically scarred as to jump off the nearest cliff to escape the misery.
Dwarf F wonders why people keep disappearing, and so on...
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What I think we're saying is we need dwarves to riot and break things more often.

Dwarf4Explosives

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Re: Horrified seeing a goblin die
« Reply #42 on: January 11, 2015, 04:48:25 am »

Until the FPS drops to zero due to puke overloading the CPU.
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And yet another bit of proof that RNG is toying with us. We do 1984, it does animal farm
...why do your hydras have two more heads than mine? 
Does that mean male hydras... oh god dammit.

Kestrel

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Re: Horrified seeing a goblin die
« Reply #43 on: February 02, 2015, 05:21:43 pm »

Is there anything in the raws that can be tweaked to reduce this occurring?
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Goblin 6 (to Goblin 7): I heard that I died.
Goblin 7 (to Goblin 6): I died.
Goblin 6 (to Goblin 7): It was inevitable.
Goblin 7 (to Goblin 6): It was inevitable.

TheHossofMoss

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Re: Horrified seeing a goblin die
« Reply #44 on: February 02, 2015, 06:21:11 pm »

Yeah, it annoys me as well.

Having non-hardened dwarves being horrified by dead goblins (that they didn't witnessed their death firsthand) is nonsense.

Disgusted, repulsed, yes. Horrified ? no. Or only for the most pacifist dwarves, not from everyone.

Starting military dwarves SHOULD be also disturbed by their kills, but no "oh it was inevitable is horrifying" by all military dwarves.

A-FREAKING-MEN!
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On the Fifth Day of Axemas, my love saved the fort from...
Five sieging Werebeasts, four Giant Dingoes, three sneaky Thieves, two drunken Black bears, and a Titan killing spree!
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