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[TD1]

I was both happy and sad. But it soon turned to happiness when I reread them a few months later XD

[lemon10]

So, after finishing the wheel of time a few months ago, I've been thinking about something quite a bit.

Spoiler: Major Wheel of Time Spoilers, like seriously (click to show/hide)

Isn't the real enemy the wheel itself?
Rand decides not to kill the dark one, because the act of doing so would remove choice from people, and make humanity fundamentally less. How such an action would stop history, and give the Dark One his victory even in death.

But this is wrong. Humans in the world never had any choice. Not a single human gets to choose where they will live, what they will do with their life, if they will be good or evil, and certainly not how they will die.
Ta'veren are merely the most obvious of it, they clearly can't choose what they will do, and the pattern doesn't even allow them the illusion that they truly control their life.
But its the exact same for everyone. Any "decision" made by anybody was decided long before they even considered it by the pattern.

You can look at the events of the books, and blame the Dark One for his evil. But consider: in the end he too was the puppet of the pattern, even his actions were predicted and incorporated into the weave millennia before (as evidenced by all the prophecy).  Without the actions of the pattern, there would have been no way for him to even enter the world the first time.

The Dark One thought about making a world where nothing would change, and Rand viewed it as a great evil. But that is already the world they live in. There is never any change, only the illusion of it. Even the longest lived only sees change, and never sees the fact that the world is truly static, simply a stuck record that loops every 100,000(?) years.

The world is on an eternal cycle, stuck perfectly within itself, every action that could free it weaved out of existence long before the one who would do it was born.

So, how could the Dark One ever really be considered a enemy, something that was never a real threat to humanity, something that was wielded by the pattern like a knife to shape its weave. Isn't the true enemy the pattern itself?

[TD1]

Spoiler: WoT stuff probably best not looked at by those who haven't read it. (click to show/hide)

So, how could the Dark One ever really be considered a enemy, something that was never a real threat to humanity, something that was wielded by the pattern like a knife to shape its weave. Isn't the true enemy the pattern itself?

Oh, but the Dark One could have succeeded. The Pattern would have ended, depending on Rand's actions. In fact, during the bit where he's on top of the mountain, there is the possibility of him ending it all there, as evidenced by the wolves saying so.

The pattern is less a groove that the world cycles through, more a vast series of intricate events. One may move within the pattern, to a certain extent. In fact, this variety is seen in the cross-worlds accessible through the Stones. The Pattern is about balance. Were the dark one to win, all would be despair, frozen in perpetual darkness and enthrallment. Were the Dragon to win, the world would be the same, dreary place. No one would have a mind, essentially. It is a statement on how balance is needed. Yes, the dark was bad....because it was the pure (Impure?) essence of evil. Too much is too bad. The light was bad when it, too, was in a pure essence. Both together is what was needed.

[lemon10]

Spoiler: Major WoT spoilers yo (click to show/hide)

So, how could the Dark One ever really be considered a enemy, something that was never a real threat to humanity, something that was wielded by the pattern like a knife to shape its weave. Isn't the true enemy the pattern itself?

Oh, but the Dark One could have succeeded. The Pattern would have ended, depending on Rand's actions. In fact, during the bit where he's on top of the mountain, there is the possibility of him ending it all there, as evidenced by the wolves saying so.

The pattern is less a groove that the world cycles through, more a vast series of intricate events. One may move within the pattern, to a certain extent. In fact, this variety is seen in the cross-worlds accessible through the Stones. The Pattern is about balance. Were the dark one to win, all would be despair, frozen in perpetual darkness and enthrallment. Were the Dragon to win, the world would be the same, dreary place. No one would have a mind, essentially. It is a statement on how balance is needed. Yes, the dark was bad....because it was the pure (Impure?) essence of evil. Too much is too bad. The light was bad when it, too, was in a pure essence. Both together is what was needed.

Yes, if he had decided to destroy the world, then indeed, he would have destroyed it.
The thing is, he could never have decided to do that. For all his vast power, he was simply the most powerful piece in the game, never the player, as evidenced by the fact that Min's visions predicted his future just as perfectly as it did everyone else's.

Neither was the Dark One a player, as evidenced by the fact that its actions were also prophesied and predicted for in many cases thousands of years in advance. None of its actions broke even the smallest prophecy or even a single one of Min's predictions. While he was indeed outside of time, the evidence is pretty clear that not even it escape the pattern's precognition while acting within it. After all, it isn't like this is the first, or fifth, or even fiftieth time that this has happened. The Dark One has almost broken free a vast number of times, and each time he has been stopped by The Dragon.

So yes. Both the Dark One and The Dragon could break the pattern if they managed to do something that it fundamentally couldn't predict. But the evidence is pretty clear that it has never happened (especially given how the pattern has gone on for countless cycles, ending with the defeat of the Dark One every single time).

But things can indeed move within the pattern, but not really very much. How you will die is planned out long before (as evidenced by min's visions), as are many other significant other things you decide to do. While you can obviously choose what you will eat for breakfast, or how you will fix a fence, you can't really change anything truly significant.

I do have to disagree about the alternate worlds showing that people have choice. I think it simply shows that the pattern is much vaster then the single world we see, its a huge constellation of worlds, a tiny multi-verse all on its own.

Also, on a completely random note I have a wildly unsupported theory: The evil in people comes from a creature outside the pattern. Shouldn't that also mean that the good comes from another creature outside the pattern? That there is a Light One out there too with the goal of taking all evil out of the world (were it to ever manage to get inside of it)?

E: Err, sorry about messing up that spoiler.

[TD1]

Errrrh you may want to fix your spoilers.

Spoiler: More of the don't look variety. I know how hard it can be to not click a spoiler :P (click to show/hide)

Min's visions predicted his future just as perfectly as it did everyone else's.

Only in so far as the pattern remained for her to see. She could not see what would happen were the pattern to end, only what would happen if it were to keep going. The future is changeable, as evidenced by Aviendha changing her child's name. The Dark One had decided to end the world/make it his slave, and could have done it. Rand himself could have done it, using again the example of the wolves saying he would destroy the pattern.

Neither was the Dark One a player, as evidenced by the fact that its actions were also prophesied and predicted for in many cases thousands of years in advance.

But there were also Dark Prophecies. For example, Perrin was meant to die. Certain Dark prophecies were fulfilled. Again, it was about balance. There were two sets of prophecies, those of the light and those of the dark. Those of the light, given it's a story, were the ones bound to prevail.

The Dark One has almost broken free a vast number of times, and each time he has been stopped by The Dragon.

And it is said throughout that the Dark One only needs to escape in one world to escape in all, and only needs to be bound in one world to be bound in all. I suppose it's intentionally confusing- the point is, the Dark One could get free. There is a way for it to happen, albeit a confusing one.

How you will die is planned out long before (as evidenced by min's visions)

That depends on what Min sees. Perhaps it is she can only see those things which people were absolutely bound to see. In fact, there was a point when there were two equally valid viewings she had:

"Gawyn kneeling at Egwene's feet with his head bowed, and Gawyn breaking Egwene's neck, first one then the other, as if either could be the future. She had never seen that fluttering back and forth, as though not even the viewing could tell which would be the true future. Worse, she had a feeling near to certainty that it was what she had done this day that had turned Gawyn toward those two possibilities."

This also implies that Min's actions were not predetermined either.

Has gone on for countless cycles

It could have only gone three cycles, say, surely?

Also, I've got to go so no time to read the rest. Might edit this post when I get back.

[lemon10]

Spoiler: Spoilers ho. (click to show/hide)

Only in so far as the pattern remained for her to see. She could not see what would happen were the pattern to end, only what would happen if it were to keep going. The future is changeable, as evidenced by Aviendha changing her child's name. The Dark One had decided to end the world/make it his slave, and could have done it. Rand himself could have done it, using again the example of the wolves saying he would destroy the pattern.

Aviendha didn't see the name of her child. She saw what a Ter'angreal predicted the name of her child (and the future) would be. That Ter'angreal could predict the future pretty far out, but I don't think it took into account the effects that looking into it would have. Plus, its pretty clear that the events it predicted are never going to take place due to what here seeing what it contained was set into motion.
Plus, your child's name is probably small enough to be changeable if it isn't going to be significant to their life.

But there were also Dark Prophecies. For example, Perrin was meant to die. Certain Dark prophecies were fulfilled. Again, it was about balance. There were two sets of prophecies, those of the light and those of the dark. Those of the light, given it's a story, were the ones bound to prevail.

Yes, certain Dark prophecies were fulfilled: All of them. All prophecies are part of the pattern, a tool it uses to shape events, even the smallest of them is fulfilled, and breaking any of them would in some sense mean beating the pattern itself.

Everything in the Shadow Prophecy did indeed happen.
The Broken Wolf was Perrin’s spirit guide.

(The link for all that stuff is here if you want to see it.)
So yeah, while the prophecy did very strongly imply that Perrin would die, that isn't the proper way to interpret it (given that he indeed, never died). But yeah, it seemed this way to me too, but word of god does say that the prophecy was fulfilled.

"Gawyn kneeling at Egwene's feet with his head bowed, and Gawyn breaking Egwene's neck, first one then the other, as if either could be the future. She had never seen that fluttering back and forth, as though not even the viewing could tell which would be the true future. Worse, she had a feeling near to certainty that it was what she had done this day that had turned Gawyn toward those two possibilities."

All this means is that there are a very few circumstances where things aren't perfectly fixed. That there are a number of possibilities that can occur. But they are extremely rare (as evidenced by Min only having seen a few visions like that, when she usually sees visions from everyone she meets), and having 1/10,000 people being able to change the outcome of a single event (that the pattern will allow to occur both ways) doesn't seem very important to me.

This also implies that Min's actions were not predetermined either.

No matter what min does she cannot change her visions, they are as absolute to her as they are to anyone else.

It could have only gone three cycles, say, surely?

Its possible, but its very strongly implied that the cycle has happened a number of times beyond counting, with the Dark One being defeated every single time. But yes its possible that this is third, or second cycle. Part of how the pattern works is that there is fundamentally no way to truly know.

That depends on what Min sees. Perhaps it is she can only see those things which people were absolutely bound to see.

Its possible, but my interpretation is that the pattern only allows her to see more then anyone else (and only the things that she can't change when she does see them), not everything that is fixed.
It may be fixed that someone will die the next day, but if Min knew she could change it, thus she would be unable to see that they will die.

[Vector]

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[notquitethere]

I've found Gaiman to be a bit hit or miss. Ways of Seeing is excellent and introduced me to the problem in aesthetics of mass production.

[Vector]

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[Arx]

Spoiler: 15/52 (click to show/hide)

Towers of Midnight - Robert Jordan/Brandon Sanderson (Yay, plotlines all finishing off.)
Bloodheir - Brian Ruckley (While it's well written, I'm not actually sure how much happened in it)
Divergent - Veronica Roth (Not the best book I've ever read, and definitely a YA novel, but good concept and writing.)
The Fault in our Stars - John Green (Emotion rollercoaster. Pretty good read.)
Way of Kings - Brandon Sanderson (It's slightly weird reading an author who's influenced my style so much)
Words of Radiance - Brandon Sanderson (Manages to pull off the couple of clichés with finesse. Really enjoying this.)
A Memory of Light - Robert Jordan/Brandon Sanderson (I enjoyed it. Pretty good wrap-up.)
The Young Unicorns - Madeleine L'Engle (Not my kind of book. Readable, but I mostly read it out of necessity)
Troubling a Star - Madeleine L'Engle (See above)
Meet the Austins - Madeleine L'Engle (See above)
The Moon by Night - Madeleine L'Engle (See above)
A Ring of Endless Light - Madeleine L'Engle (See above)
Little Brother - Cory Doctorow (Certainly an interesting book. Large parts seemed unrealistic to me. Still saddened by my lack of access to materials.)
Pollyanna - Eleanor Porter (Sort of cool, but so unlikely, at least in modern times)
For the Win - Cory Doctorow (Interesting. A little weird.)

I really enjoyed Little Brother.

[Vector]

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[TD1]

13/52
Name of the Wind-Patrick Rothfuss.

Had to reread it

[notquitethere]

13/52
Name of the Wind-Patrick Rothfuss.

Had to reread it

Let's talk some more about how I don't understand why everyone loves these books quite so much. I think they're pretty good (better than the baseline of quality in fantasy novels) and I think Rothuss' skill in characterisation improves greatly by the second novel (the adventuring party in the woods were expertly drawn; but I still confuse his two university friends); but they're self-indulgently long (compare with how much someone like Gene Wolfe or Ursula K Le Guin can pack into half as many pages). Actually, what makes it feel a bit too long for me is the single-protagonist focus. I'm fine with lengthy series when the worlds continues to expand through different characters perspectives (like in A Song of Ice & Fire, or the Painted Man books).

What made you decide to reread the novel rather than read something new?


Talking of long novels... I've been reading Worm recently. It's the Game of Thrones of Superhero fiction. It's really long but, over-lengthy fight scenes aside, it manages to maintain persistent momentum. The stakes always increase, but in a way that flows naturally from the setting. Everything is set up so that it develops organically, with twists that are well seeded in advance. But better than all that, every character is distinct and richly drawn and has a distinguishable personality and set of goals. It's 3 times the length of War & Peace and I'm mostly reading it on my phone, but I'm confident of finishing it this month.

[lemon10]

Make sure you read Pact once you finish Worm. Its the next work by the author (and set in a different universe), and is also super good (and super long), being fantasy instead of superheroes.

[notquitethere]

I'll definitely give it a shot, though I might give myself a break in between. (Fun fact: GreatWyrmGold, late of this forum, is a regular commenter on Worm. Small world.)