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[Robsoie]

I agree that df2014 gobs are pathetics and they're attacking so rarely and in so small numbers that you can only lose a battle if you field new untrained or naked dwarves.
And let's not talk about adventure mode in which you can slaughter goblins by thousands without most of them even trying to fight back.

But past versions gobs (34.11 and earlier) often fielded several weaponmasters along them , and they were real troubles, not pushovers like they are now, weaponmasters were quite much as strong as legendary dwarven warriors.

Now undead, they're indeed broken as in simply not fun or interesting challenge, if your fort get an undead siege, what are your options if you want to continue your fort
- just turtle in and ignore the undead
- you have made tons of traps to catch them all

If you choose to meet them on the field to have some epic battle like in past versions (in which the power of undead was in their huge number and re-animated bodyparts as they were falling+ re-animating of your own dwarves when they were overwhelmed) , a single undead is able to one punch your legendary through its armor, chip the bone resulting in him getting unconscious and of course dead some turns later, that's not really leading into better story.

In adventure mode, multi attack is so overpowered that you can take several dozen of undeads around their necro tower by yourself if you apply that multi-attack accuracy exploit, and if you try regular fight, at some point one of the undead will punch you through your nice armor and chip a bone -> direct unconsciousness, then of course dead.

Again, it does not contribute to any better story.

Hopefully goblins and undead will get some really good rebalance.

[Loud Whispers]

wat. That isn't true at all. Like even in the slightest. DF goblin invaders are absolutely pathetic in the face of trained, equipped soldiers. They don't even have proper armor coverage, let alone decent skills.

Experiences may vary xP

[Urist Tilaturist]

I agree that goblins need some better equipment and skills. Dogpiling (multiple fighters overwhelming a single, stronger opponent) should be better implemented as well. Fighting goblins is just too easy at the moment; enough are around, but they do not put up enough of a fight.

[kemoT]

Honestly, I think that we lack a middle ground if it comes to difficulty of sieges. Goblins are too easy to defeat and zombies are OP. This leaves you with a choice of having no challenge at all, or getting massacred without a chance to fight back. IMO, we should have kobolds take the role of df2014 goblins. Greenskins themselves should be buffed and undead's agility nerfed.

[Urist Tilaturist]

Honestly, I think that we lack a middle ground if it comes to difficulty of sieges. Goblins are too easy to defeat and zombies are OP. This leaves you with a choice of having no challenge at all, or getting massacred without a chance to fight back. IMO, we should have kobolds take the role of df2014 goblins. Greenskins themselves should be buffed and undead's agility nerfed.

Rather than changing kobolds, just fix goblins and undead. No need to add more variables and make things even more complicated.

[StagnantSoul]

Dogpiling actually works rather well. Five trogs killed a hammer lord of mine by simply dogpiling him. Goblins need a major buff, there needs to be kobolds as an actual cave civ with their banditry being secondary, and some challenge added to be a middle ground too- maybe make semi-megabeasts a bit stronger and more common?

[kemoT]

Honestly, I think that we lack a middle ground if it comes to difficulty of sieges. Goblins are too easy to defeat and zombies are OP. This leaves you with a choice of having no challenge at all, or getting massacred without a chance to fight back. IMO, we should have kobolds take the role of df2014 goblins. Greenskins themselves should be buffed and undead's agility nerfed.

Rather than changing kobolds, just fix goblins and undead. No need to add more variables and make things even more complicated.

Well, kobolds in fact can siege you even in this version. My point is to make them do it more often so that they present a challenge in the early game. If we made goblins more powerful they could become new undead: strong and attacking fast.

[quekwoambojish]

Combat in this version took an ugly turn into the all or nothing kind of gameplay.

Go ahead and engage a baddie in adventure mode or fort mode, chances are nothing short of these 3 things will happen:
1. Baddie cries and runs away.
2. Baddie doesn't fight back and you feel bad.
3. Baddie collapses any visible iron helmet with fist cannons.

There is the rare case that some funky beasty puts up a fight, but again normally this resorts to the usual all or nothing:
1. Funky Beasty is made of fairy dust.
2. Funky Beasty shoots webs.

[Neonivek]

Yeah an undead should only be at least 2-3 times more dangerous then the creature it was animated from.

Maybe more, but not a one fort killing machine.

[Loud Whispers]

Yeah an undead should only be at least 2-3 times more dangerous then the creature it was animated from.
Maybe more, but not a one fort killing machine.

Why? There is very little consistent logic towards what undead should be, flapping skins and skeletons in the wind or abominable end-game constructs to not be trifled with?

[fomori]

I reckon they should be threats, just not ludicrous, broken, illogical threats. Meddling with Advanced worldgen and the interaction_standard folder works for me right now, but sometimes I go back to 0.34 to ensure sieges and battles and the undead there are okay.

[Neonivek]

Yeah an undead should only be at least 2-3 times more dangerous then the creature it was animated from.
Maybe more, but not a one fort killing machine.

Why? There is very little consistent logic towards what undead should be, flapping skins and skeletons in the wind or abominable end-game constructs to not be trifled with?

Because an undead being can be stabbed without going down.

I know we are used to Resident Evil where Zombies are incredibly fragile and can go down with a punch to the gut (Somehow...)

But these aren't that kind of zombie. You are dealing with a unliving version of the creature, one who feels no pain, doesn't bleed, doesn't suffer organ damage, and won't fall unconscious.

That is 2-3 times more dangerous right there. A Undead Dragon is worth 2-3 Dragons

[Loud Whispers]

Because an undead being can be stabbed without going down.
I know we are used to Resident Evil where Zombies are incredibly fragile and can go down with a punch to the gut (Somehow...)
But these aren't that kind of zombie. You are dealing with a unliving version of the creature, one who feels no pain, doesn't bleed, doesn't suffer organ damage, and won't fall unconscious.
That is 2-3 times more dangerous right there. A Undead Dragon is worth 2-3 Dragons

I see nothing wrong with this :D

One of my favourite DF moments of all time has to be when I beheaded a human corpse - to my surprise it did not die and its headless body just began killing me to death. Magma, vampire soldiers, supersoldiers and pulping squads, what a sight!

[kemoT]

But the op doesn't want to make zombies less tough. I loved the moment when a horde of undead walked through my trap-corridor, where they were getting chopped and sliced to pieces. Body parts were everywhere. And yet none of them stopped. They were still advancing, even when they lost legs, they were still crawling forward.
I think that the problem is incredible agility of undead. They are currently just too fast and hard to hit, which makes them op. You can't escape, you can't engage them them at a distance, you can't fight them unless you are incredibly strong. If they were slower and less agile you could at least fill them with bolts before finishing them off with military. I think it would make fighting them a lot more balanced.

[Witty]

The tissue paper skull issue (which is more of a bug with the combat system as a whole, and not undead in particular) is also a huge player in this problem. If undead actually killed other creatures consistently through more realistic means, it wouldn't be such an issue. On the other hand, if undead didn't quickly end an encounter via skull caving, I don't think they'd be considered nearly as OP as they are now.