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[TheCheeseMaker]

I honestly feel that the only problem with the undead is that their stats are buffed on reanimation. If the undead were exactly how they are now, but with the exact same strength and toughness as they had when they were alive, they would have proper difficulty.

Because I think having undead be a challenge for late game is good, as there aren't very many other threats besides HFS, but they certainly shouldn't kill my entire legendary+++ army while only taking 3 casualties.

[Neonivek]

But the op doesn't want to make zombies less tough

He wants to make them the slow, stupid, suicidal, easy zombies.

Guess what! It doesn't matter how strong you are... if you don't swing fast, you don't do damage.

Which I strongly oppose because Dwarf Fortress is a breath of fresh air.

[kemoT]

Slow and less agile doesn't mean easy. They keep their superhuman strength and are still invulnerable to being killed in other way than pulping, or chopping off their limbs. Making them slower just gives you some way of at least avoiding a fight you can't win.

[Robsoie]

34.11 undead were perfect, they were strong enough  and adding sheer number to constant re-animating from the multiple necros hiding around their legions (or evil auto re-animating area) of severed body parts and fallen dwarves, were a very good challenge for your dwarves.
And let's not talk about the stronger undead like the husks, they were scary in every way for a dwarf fortress.

No idea why Toady suddenly decide to overpower the lesser undead so badly in df2014.

When the only way to fight with any undead is to either exploit a badly broken combat mechanic in adventure mode (the df2014 multi-attack) or in fort mode to simply close the bridge and never fight (because any df2014 undead can one-punch your guy through their amor at any time and chip their bones, rendered them unconscious then dead) and wait until they leave, it's just broken gameplay.

Toady should just bring back the 34.11 undead (and goblins, trolls and bandits, they were a lot more of a challenge than the pathetics ones of df2014), it was the most fun sieges and adventure were.

[pisskop]

Zombies in DF dont bother me as much as others.


Im guessing they were ramped up bc of pulping body parts.  From my own experience a competent adventurer and proficient fortressdwarves should be okay against a similarly sized, non-armored zombie.


Id like more than pulping kill them, however.  Or less of a buff to their attribuites.

[quekwoambojish]

Zombies in DF dont bother me as much as others.


Im guessing they were ramped up bc of pulping body parts.  From my own experience a competent adventurer and proficient fortressdwarves should be okay against a similarly sized, non-armored zombie.

Id like more than pulping kill them, however.  Or less of a buff to their attribuites.

Sorry, but a competent skilled adventurer will get absolutely obliterated in ANY case against even the smallest of zombies let alone one your own size. Legendary skills is nigh mandatory, and even then one lone zombie is still likely to take you out.

Proficiently skilled fortressdwarves will have an incredibly hard time as well, even 2v1.

Are you maybe talking about last releases zombies?

[pisskop]

Nah.  Though fortress dwarves are ai controlled and your mileage may vary.

Try dodging out of the zombies way, slashing off their flying/leggy parts, hacking off any weapons, then gibbing at the head.

1v1 or even v2 it can be done.

[quekwoambojish]

Nah.  Though fortress dwarves are ai controlled and your mileage may vary.

Try dodging out of the zombies way, slashing off their flying/leggy parts, hacking off any weapons, then gibbing at the head.

1v1 or even v2 it can be done.

Unless you're exploiting the multi attack dodge mechanic, or wearing full steel/adamant, you're absolutely going to be trashed as a competent adventurer 1v2. It's not even a question at that point.

Either that, or everyone except you is doing it wrong.

[Urist Tilaturist]

All this talk of reverting to 34.11 is beside the point. Reducing the deadliness of undead may be a good idea, but that is going forwards, not backwards. The game has changed. The same applies to giving goblins better skills and equipment, something I am in favour of.

[Chevaleresse]

I'll chime in here.

1. The whole thing with goblins, etc being incredibly weak is a bug, or at the very least an oversight resulting from armies actually existing rather than just sort of popping into existence on your doorstop. Commenting on the difficulty of DF2014 goblins isn't really logical since their weakness results from several mechanics that (probably) aren't quite working as intended.

2. I agree with the notion that zombies should remain incredibly threatening. Any person who plays adventure mode (or pays attention to combat logs at all) knows that soldiers are rarely felled because they were rendered incapable of being alive or fighting due to organ damage; they die because they feel pain, they get tired, and they bleed. Simple removal of those things is enough to render almost anything into a dangerous killing machine. Think about how much damage a simple house cat could cause to a fully grown human if it didn't feel pain or immediately die/fall unconscious upon having a limb crushed or removed.

3. Undead are still -absurdly- powerful. I understand giving them slight buffs to strength, since your physical power is in part limited due to the fact that you feel pain. But the massive increases in strength on top of the most important stat in DF (agility) makes them ridiculous. They are outrunning (and therefore outfighting) ridiculously strong modded adventurers consistently. To take a peek at this particular creature's stats:

Code: [Select]

[BODY_SIZE:12:0:360000]
[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:STRENGTH:1000:1300:1550:1900:2300:2550:3000]             +++
[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:AGILITY:450:950:1150:1250:1350:1550:2250]               +
[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:TOUGHNESS:450:950:1150:1250:1350:1550:2250]             +
[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:ENDURANCE:450:950:1150:1250:1350:1550:2250]             +
[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:RECUPERATION:700:1200:1400:1500:1600:1800:2500]         ++
[PHYS_ATT_RANGE:DISEASE_RESISTANCE:50:150:600:800:900:1000:1100]        --
[MENT_ATT_RANGE:INTUITION:450:950:1150:1250:1350:1550:2250]             +
[MENT_ATT_RANGE:FOCUS:700:1200:1400:1500:1600:1800:2500]                ++
[MENT_ATT_RANGE:PATIENCE:50:200:400:600:800:1000:1200]                  --
[MENT_ATT_RANGE:MEMORY:450:950:1150:1250:1350:1550:2250]                +
[MENT_ATT_RANGE:SPATIAL_SENSE:700:1200:1400:1500:1600:1800:2500]        ++
[MENT_ATT_RANGE:KINESTHETIC_SENSE:700:1200:1400:1500:1600:1800:2500]    ++
[MENT_ATT_RANGE:EMPATHY:150:600:800:900:1000:1100:1500]                 -
[MENT_ATT_RANGE:SOCIAL_AWARENESS:150:600:800:900:1000:1100:1500]        -On top of four arms flagged with independent multiattacking, i.e. five free attacks in one turn without penalty. Undead overpower and outpace a creature at the very top of these ranges at adult size. (I should mention that this creature's attacks are so powerful that you're better off simply punching things to death rather than using a weapon, as said punches are capable of removing limbs from basically anything smaller than you.)


4. 40.24 combat seems broken in general. A dwarven adventurer who was a legendary fighter dressed in full steel, with artifact steel mail shirt was easily disassembled by a simple spearman, if I am remembering correctly. Bogeymen remain as stupidly powerful as ever, shattering skulls with single punches despite being a couple inches tall. It's impossible to tell hostiles from friendlies, and even successfully doing so still gets you branded as a murderer.

5. Speaking about 1v1 situations with undead is absurd. The smallest group of undead I have ever encountered in any mode was around 40, from a necromancer siege.

[angelious]

why should the undead be slow and clumsy?


df is known for being "a difficult game" i dont really see any reason to make it easier just because people are having hard time with it...

[Robsoie]

In DF undead have never been "slow and clumsy" and have always been perfectly able to kill unprepared dwarf.

The difference in df2014 is that undead are able to one hit - unconscious (as a bone will be hit = instant unconscious) any dwarf (then easily kill after that) through whatever armor your dwarves are using, unless you're playing in adventure mode and abuse the multi-attack exploit (that the AI in fortress mode has no idea on how to do) in which case the undead will nearly never hit you squarely.

So in Fortress mode when the only viable way to fight an undead horde invading your fortress is to actually just close the doors and/or make traps for them all (or wait for them to become bugged and stay where they are forever), it makes it for extremely boring gameplay, as it offers no actual choice for the player.
Especially as there's no real invasion alternative, goblins nearly never coming.

Something that didn't happened in 34.11 in which it was dangerous and would get your troops casualties but it was possible to fight and defeat an invading horde assuming you were able to deal with the stealthy necromancer fast enough (or the re-animation of your own fallen and the undead body parts would get you) , while hoping that necromancer was alone and not with other stealth necromancer friends.

And that without even mentionning the husks and what they could do to your dwarves.

[Witty]

1. The whole thing with goblins, etc being incredibly weak is a bug, or at the very least an oversight resulting from armies actually existing rather than just sort of popping into existence on your doorstop. Commenting on the difficulty of DF2014 goblins isn't really logical since their weakness results from several mechanics that (probably) aren't quite working as intended.

Goblin difficulty isn't just about the bugs introduced in .40. The issues a lot of people (myself included) have with goblins stems back to the previous version and earlier. Goblins (and all soldiers really) have, and always have, the bare minimum amount of equipment. No full armor coverage. The skill of siegers are consistently awful and subpar - made even more apparent when you can train any dwarf from nothing to legendary within two years. Yes, 34.11 had some hard coded stuff to negate this, like properly designated sqauds and weapon masters (which obviously don't exist anymore), but these still didn't do much. The fact is, 5 legendary dwarves equipped with decent gear can destroy entire goblin armies. This has always been the case, and it's clearly quite broken. The issue really has its roots in many places (invader equipment, skills in general, combat bugs, etc.), but it's still valid to talk about goblin difficulty in DF2014, because there would still be many issues even if you fixed all the mechanics DF2014 broke.

[angelious]

In DF undead have never been "slow and clumsy" and have always been perfectly able to kill unprepared dwarf.

The difference in df2014 is that undead are able to one hit - unconscious (as a bone will be hit = instant unconscious) any dwarf (then easily kill after that) through whatever armor your dwarves are using, unless you're playing in adventure mode and abuse the multi-attack exploit (that the AI in fortress mode has no idea on how to do) in which case the undead will nearly never hit you squarely.

So in Fortress mode when the only viable way to fight an undead horde invading your fortress is to actually just close the doors and/or make traps for them all (or wait for them to become bugged and stay where they are forever), it makes it for extremely boring gameplay, as it offers no actual choice for the player.
Especially as there's no real invasion alternative, goblins nearly never coming.

Something that didn't happened in 34.11 in which it was dangerous and would get your troops casualties but it was possible to fight and defeat an invading horde assuming you were able to deal with the stealthy necromancer fast enough (or the re-animation of your own fallen and the undead body parts would get you) , while hoping that necromancer was alone and not with other stealth necromancer friends.

And that without even mentionning the husks and what they could do to your dwarves.

you can actually hack the zombies into pieces and pulp so there just isnt anything left to stay reanimated...or create magma cannons. or pitfall traps.


also honestly,i dont think nerfing things in this game JUST because they are difficult is needed...the difficulty is one of the funnier aspects of the game.

[malvado]

The main problem is that this game isn't just about Fortress mode , it's also about Adventure mode , as such things needs to be a bit more balanced in order to make both modes entertaining and playable for everyone.

I can't say that I find a game very enjoying if you have to save scum and hope you don't encounter Zombies even if you are fully armored and have legendary skills , it should be difficult ( mainly because of the inmense numbers of undeads ) but not impossible and you should have an option.

That was the good thing about Fortress mode before Zombies became the most deadly thing on Dwarfland even before the circus , you somewhat knew that you would be challenged and if you did dig too deep you would risk being smashed to pulpy dwarf bits pretty fast by the circus clowns.

Ive enjoyed both Adventure mode and Dwarf mode and I have to honestly say that this current release is the one i find less enjoyable even though it has a lot more than the other versions , then again it's not because of one problem but a multitude of problems that adds a bit to the playability of the current version one by one :

*Zombies : As other people has stated , way too strong and deadly. Should be stronger than a normal sentient being , but not that overpowered as they currently are.
*Bugs : Quite a few small bugs that either crashes your game or impacts some aspects of the game. At least they might get fixed over time.
*Game speed : It's very hard to enjoy a game that slows down over time and once you hit a certain speed everything seems to crawl to a stop. I've been down to 10Fps and it was very hard to continue to play that fortress even though it was only a few years old and had almost reached 125 dwarves.

I am faithfull that Toady will be able to correct some of these problems and perhaps in a few months time we won't remember the problems we had in this release.