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Author Topic: Females in Games? Thread  (Read 166738 times)

Loud Whispers

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #705 on: December 19, 2014, 07:39:23 pm »

And frankly, men will hire who they will be comfortable working with, namely other men
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smeeprocket

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #706 on: December 19, 2014, 07:41:36 pm »

Representing women is not a superficial quality. It is important. It bothers me that you feel tha tdoing this is meaningless or somehow requires some scheme to trick people into buying a game because it is PC. What game are you even referring to where this is a thing?

There are some popular games with women in them, they make money just fine. That's my point though, just because capitalistically it makes good sense doesn't mean the people steering the ship are operating solely on the base of money. They too, have stereotypes and biases. And yes that will make them hire men over women and not appeal to women.

When I say game companies hire men because they are more comfortable with them, I am being polite. The alternative is they feel women are just inferior at the job and not good enough to hire. I am being optimistic. So if you prefer that outlook, that is also highly probable.
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Neonivek

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #707 on: December 19, 2014, 07:42:55 pm »

It is mostly the difference in what I think their motives for including more females in games are.

Tokenism is often worse then just exclusion altogether.

As well I don't quite think women are playing games "in spite" of the lack of women anyhow.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2014, 07:44:40 pm by Neonivek »
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smeeprocket

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #708 on: December 19, 2014, 07:44:11 pm »

It is mostly the difference in what I think their motives for including more females in games are.

Tokenism is often worse then just exclusion altogether.

I think assuming the women are there just as a token is kind of a leap for most games, and if by token you mean appealing to women who want to play as their own gender, well that seems more than a token reason, to me.

Why not make all characters non gendered in that case?
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Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #709 on: December 19, 2014, 07:46:19 pm »

Right but Muslims are the most oft used. Like 90% of the time I hear that kind of comment it's in regards to muslims.

Either way, the point is, yes it could be worse, the men ruling the scene could be selling us into sex slavery, but here the men... still rule the scene. Just because your owner doesn't beat you, doesn't make you any less property. (yes that is hyperbole.)

There is a problem with this way of speaking. Boko Haram are not "running the scene" in most of Nigeria; in fact, many of them feel powerless, hence why they resort to cowardly acts of terrorism. They are not able to do whatever they want, their wives are in prison, their first leader was shot without trial and they are on the run. The same could be said of US sex traffickers; many women are being sold into slavery in the USA, but the men and women doing this are not the president. Exploitation does not always come from the sinister big man at the top. Most crime and violence is overwhelmingly poor on poor.

Saying that most women are property in the USA is just plain wrong, never mind hyperbole. There are women kept as property in the USA, but they are not the majority. It is not at all exaggerating to say that many US women are beaten, but to say most of them are would be false.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2014, 07:47:57 pm by Urist Uristurister »
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AlleeCat

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #710 on: December 19, 2014, 07:46:38 pm »

You don't have to go that far to have decent female soldiers.
I'm not sure if anyone else has brought this up, but Vasquez gets ribbed and harassed just as much, (if not more) as her male squadmates, and nobody says anything about her squadmates being sexist for it. How come a movie in the 80s can do it, but almost 30 years later, we barely see anything like that?

Neonivek

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #711 on: December 19, 2014, 07:47:52 pm »

If you play games where a character has no gender OR where the gender can be chosen you will see a rather large difference between how the game handles them and their story.

There are leagues of difference between Sheppard from Mass Effect and Madison from Heavy Rain.

Quote
I think assuming the women are there just as a token is kind of a leap for most games

Token female characters still occur. You can easily spot them if they seemingly have less story, depth of character, or do not complete their own storyline while others do.

You don't have to go that far to have decent female soldiers.
I'm not sure if anyone else has brought this up, but Vasquez gets ribbed and harassed just as much, (if not more) as her male squadmates, and nobody says anything about her squadmates being sexist for it. How come a movie in the 80s can do it, but almost 30 years later, we barely see anything like that?

Because it was the 80s before we went full into the "Women need to be protected from men" phase where we didn't even let a woman get punched by a man on TV even if she was a super hero.

We so strongly associate women with physical abuse that we no longer can create that disconnect.

Well it still happens... but as Anita Sarceesian mentions, it is wrong!
« Last Edit: December 19, 2014, 07:50:32 pm by Neonivek »
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smeeprocket

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #712 on: December 19, 2014, 07:48:15 pm »

Right but Muslims are the most oft used. Like 90% of the time I hear that kind of comment it's in regards to muslims.

Either way, the point is, yes it could be worse, the men ruling the scene could be selling us into sex slavery, but here the men... still rule the scene. Just because your owner doesn't beat you, doesn't make you any less property. (yes that is hyperbole.)

There is a problem with this way of speaking. Boko Haram are not "running the scene" in most of Nigeria; in fact, many of them feel powerless, hence why they resort to cowardly acts of terrorism. They are not able to do whatever they want, their wives are in prison, their first leader was shot without trial and they are on the run. The same could be said of US sex traffickers; many women are being sold into slavery in the USA, but the men and women doing this are not the president. Exploitation does not always come from the sinister big man at the top. Most crime and violence is overwhelmingly poor on poor.

Saying that most women are property in the USA is just plain wrong, never mind hyperbole. There are women kept as property in the USA, but they are not the majority.

we are not property (usually) but we are second class citizens. But you get my point, rarely is a bad situation made worse by mentioning that it could, in and of itself, be worse. That just trivializes the issue and does nothing to solve the problem.
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Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #713 on: December 19, 2014, 07:49:18 pm »

I'm not sure if anyone else has brought this up, but Vasquez gets ribbed and harassed just as much, (if not more) as her male squadmates, and nobody says anything about her squadmates being sexist for it. How come a movie in the 80s can do it, but almost 30 years later, we barely see anything like that?

We do, in any army that is gender integrated - try Israel.
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smeeprocket

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #714 on: December 19, 2014, 07:49:46 pm »

If you play games where a character has no gender OR where the gender can be chosen you will see a rather large difference between how the game handles them and their story.

There are leagues of difference between Sheppard from Mass Effect and Madison from Heavy Rain.

Quote
I think assuming the women are there just as a token is kind of a leap for most games

Token female characters still occur. You can easily spot them if they seemingly have less story, depth of character, or do not complete their own storyline while others do.

yes and that is also a very real problem which I think we can all agree I'm not arguing for. I think I speak for most gamer females when I say we want women in the game, and not in the current state where they are one dimensional T&A
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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #715 on: December 19, 2014, 07:50:19 pm »

Either way, the point is, yes it could be worse, the men ruling the scene could be selling us into sex slavery, but here the men... still rule the scene.


...No they don't. It's not nearly that black and white.
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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #716 on: December 19, 2014, 07:51:37 pm »

I'm not sure if anyone else has brought this up, but Vasquez gets ribbed and harassed just as much, (if not more) as her male squadmates, and nobody says anything about her squadmates being sexist for it. How come a movie in the 80s can do it, but almost 30 years later, we barely see anything like that?

We do, in any army that is gender integrated - try Israel.
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Graknorke

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #717 on: December 19, 2014, 07:52:30 pm »

we are second class citizens
I can't tell if you're serious.

I'm not sure if anyone else has brought this up, but Vasquez gets ribbed and harassed just as much, (if not more) as her male squadmates, and nobody says anything about her squadmates being sexist for it. How come a movie in the 80s can do it, but almost 30 years later, we barely see anything like that?
We do, in any army that is gender integrated - try Israel.
This thread is about video games, and arguably media in general.
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Caz

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #718 on: December 19, 2014, 07:52:35 pm »

we are not property (usually) but we are second class citizens. But you get my point, rarely is a bad situation made worse by mentioning that it could, in and of itself, be worse. That just trivializes the issue and does nothing to solve the problem.

What? Women can vote, drive, have a fair trial, hold every title of office, be a judge, police officer, CEO, anything. I really don't see what you're getting at here. Women are not second-class citizens in the majority of the world. 
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ed boy

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #719 on: December 19, 2014, 07:53:03 pm »

To rerail the thread, I don't feel that there is a large sexism problem with games myself. That is, although sexist games exist, I feel that they are very much the minority. To investigate this, I decided to have a look at the games that I play. I'd encourage other people to do the same.

Here's the list of the games that I currently have installed on my laptop or lying around, with the exclusion of games that I got in humble bundles that I have not yet played.

Spoiler: game list (click to show/hide)

Here's my assessment of gender equality in each of those games. Note that this is based off my recollection of the game, which in some cases is very old, and I may recall incorrectly, in which case feel free to point out my errors. I considered the gender of the protagonist, the gender of the NPCs, and if the depiction of the characters was unwarrantedly sexualised or revealing.

Spoiler: game assessment (click to show/hide)

And my conclusions:
Spoiler: conclusions (click to show/hide)
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