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[smeeprocket]

Selling out to the casual scrubs is rarely a good idea for game quality, but that is not a question of equality. Casual scrubs can be any colour or gender.

Let's look at what civil and political rights are:

Civil rights are your rights not to be discriminated against in employment and your freedom of expression. Political rights are your franchise and equality before the law. There are big overlaps between these, and they are all political issues in some way; saying that they are not ignores that they were hotly disputed for much of the 19th and 20th centuries. Political positions are often repugnant to some or even many; the opossite, discrimination, is acceptable to whom? Not you, or me, but it is acceptable to Boko Haram.

Absolutely, silly isn't bad, and humour is not the same as being wacky. But how can inaccuracy be deliberate and serious? I can understand the intention, but not how it could work in effect.

please don't use the middle east as some litmus test to determine that western society is enlightened and equal. Just because women aren't being sold into sex slavery doesn't mean the west isn't abysmal in its treatment of women. It's just a way for some western men to feel like they don't have to be inclusive or improve the status of women because there are people that do worse things out there. Plus, honestly, using the middle east for that every time is kind of islamophobic. The impression is that "ladies, you should consider yourselves lucky, you don't have to deal with muslim men"

[Urist Tilaturist]

Boko Haram is in Nigeria. That is not in the middle east. Well done.

The US also has large numbers of female sex slaves, as I am sure you know, and of course these Americans would disagree with women's rights as well. Some girls are sold into prostitution by the parents as children.

[smeeprocket]

Boko Haram is in Nigeria. That is not in the middle east. Well done.

the are Muslim, however. I used the middle east because that is the common reference, when delivering that somewhat islamophobic type of remark.

[Neonivek]

Neonivek: Are you saying appealing to women would be appealing to the lowest common denominator or just that if you appeal to women, standards need be lowered for... I don't understand the reason that there would be for that

You aren't appealing to "Women" you are trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator of women.

That is what mainstream pandering is.

Think of it like Astrid in How to Train your Dragon who is a strong and skilled warrior in her own right who wishes to sort of prove to everyone that she has what it takes to be the best warrior in the village... But who gives up her dreams to follow Hiccup's who is our male protagonist.

Or any videogame female who hates men (Excluding Dragon Commander... They surprisingly did the Man Hater in a non-offensive way by giving her depth and by making her aggressiveness towards men be more because she lives in this incredibly sexist world and when you do make things better... she does lighten up significantly and will praise you for it) because hating men is like feminism right? (I am being sarcastic)

[smeeprocket]

Neonivek: Are you saying appealing to women would be appealing to the lowest common denominator or just that if you appeal to women, standards need be lowered for... I don't understand the reason that there would be for that

You aren't appealing to "Women" you are trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator of women.

That is what mainstream pandering is.

Think of it like Astrid in How to Train your Dragon who is a strong and skilled warrior in her own right who wishes to sort of prove to everyone that she has what it takes to be the best warrior in the village... But who gives up her dreams to follow Hiccup's who is our male protagonist.

I think we've meandered into a debate I didn't know I was a part of.

Harnessing the potential of appealing to women customers doesn't necessarily mean the standards of the game are lowered, so I don't understand how we got on this topic.

Women also like high quality games.

[Neonivek]

We aren't talking about making high quality games here.

We are talking about inserting female characters in games to appeal to the mainstream female gamers.

Here is also a secret: Men also like high quality female character.

I like to argue the inclusion of women as more of a desire for games to show more depth and variety. Mostly because that is a easier argue a lot of the time then a moralistic game by game argument.

[Urist Tilaturist]

the are Muslim, however. I used the middle east because that is the common reference, when delivering that somewhat islamophobic type of remark.

Very nice. So I am islamophobic for mentioning Boko Haram in passing, but you can criticise mighty whitey all day without being prejudiced yourself.

You want some white sex traffickers? You can find them inside the US. I am not one of them, and I doubt a single one posts on Bay12. We are not the real enemy.

[Caz]

My point being, my rights in general are not political, they are civil.

Civil rights are determined politically, though.

[Caz]

Women do not play games because they are included, they play them in spite of not being included. Doesn't it make sense marketing wise to include more women and appeal to them for the $$$ that could be gained?

If they playing them anyway, what's the point?

[smeeprocket]

the are Muslim, however. I used the middle east because that is the common reference, when delivering that somewhat islamophobic type of remark.

Very nice. So I am islamophobic for mentioning Boko Haram in passing, but you can criticise mighty whitey all day without being prejudiced yourself.

You want some white sex traffickers? You can find them inside the US. I am not one of them, and I doubt a single one posts on Bay12. We are not the real enemy.

okay that wasn't meant to be as offensive as it came off. I honestly think you are an all right guy, Urist.

I'm saying when people make those kinds of comments, it leads to a general islamophobic atmosphere. The impression (and sometimes the intent, but not always) is that Muslim men are far more brutal and dangerous and women should consider themselves lucky they aren't dealing with them.

Even if that isn't your intent, it is the kind of sentiment we end up hearing a lot of, and even progressive men will use Muslims as an example of how much better they treat their women.

edit: caz, is that really a question? SHouldn't you appeal to your audience? Seems like it would boost sales and even bolster them in areas where women are less of the audience. WOmen have the desire to play games, so when you exclude them, you lessen the amount that are going to play your game. Besides the general impression you give to young girls, by having fewer female protagonists, that they are secondary and not as important.

[Urist Tilaturist]

The funny thing is that I never generalised the statement to all muslims. You made that generalisation and added the subtext. I mentioned a single muslim gang known especially for its crimes against women. I could equally have mentioned white Serbian and Russian child pornographers and sex traffickers who are notorious across Europe. This would not generalise to all white men.

[Caz]

edit: caz, is that really a question? SHouldn't you appeal to your audience? Seems like it would boost sales and even bolster them in areas where women are less of the audience. WOmen have the desire to play games, so when you exclude them, you lessen the amount that are going to play your game. Besides the general impression you give to young girls, by having fewer female protagonists, that they are secondary and not as important.

If games with more female protagonists were as successful as you claim, they would already exist. There is not some untapped market here. Gamers play games that are enjoyable to play, not on some arbitrary count of characters of each gender.

[Loud Whispers]

My point being, my rights in general are not political, they are civil. Less in relationtion to representation in video games, though that is part of the whole, but more in relation to arguing that my civil rights are political implies that there is a counter argument. What would be the acceptable alternative argument against equality exactly?

Your civil rights are my civil rights, what gave you the impression I oppose my own liberty? No, I was merely pointing out that there exists other viewpoints to "equal representation" in video games that aren't misogyny and a desire to tear down the walls of democracy. Such as not judging games by the superficial qualities of its characters and judging them by their quality.

Did you really just argue that appealing to more people would be mainstream and therefore would lower the quality of games? That's... for real?

Yes, and argued it before it was cool.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

That was a joke. Comedy is hard to write; I shall refrain from being lolrandum.

I'm talking about the big AAA developers using progressive identity politics to shield themselves from legitimate criticism; i.e. they're absolutely full of shit and should give all of their money to the beleaguered Greek government.
They are willing to use anything as their shield and because there  are fools who will support people who wave the flag of inclusiveness even when video evidence of such flagwavers being scam artists milking progressives for money is procured and they still defend them. There are people who care so little about gaming and more about social justice that they literally talk about 'fun' being a 'poisonous priority' in games. This makes it all the more easier for the world's most hated companies to keep killing gaming because they don't have to listen to criticism anymore. They can make a game with a lesbian gay woman and have Jezebel and Kotaku call gamers misogynists and call it a day whilst raking in massive dollar. The controversy alone is enough to allow developers to shut their head in the sand and slag gamers off as obese white men who hate women whilst giving the middle finger to actually trying for their games.

Plus, honestly, using the middle east for that every time is kind of islamophobic. The impression is that "ladies, you should consider yourselves lucky, you don't have to deal with muslim men"

No I'm pretty certain the impression is 'ladies, I'm not going to stone you to death.'

[Graknorke]

Some people argue women should "earn" their place in the industry and then they get the right to be represented. Which is absurd, women were in the industry in good numbers before men crowded them out, and you shouldn't have to "earn" representation or equality.

Since when was representation in media anyone's right?

And frankly, men will hire who they will be comfortable working with, namely other men

ITT: We learn that gamer men are all cripplingly socially inept and can't talk to girls 'cuz they're scarey.

[smeeprocket]

The funny thing is that I never generalised the statement to all muslims. You made that generalisation and added the subtext. I mentioned a single muslim gang known especially for its crimes against women. I could equally have mentioned white Serbian and Russian child pornographers and sex traffickers who are notorious across Europe. This would not generalise to all white men.

Right but Muslims are the most oft used. Like 90% of the time I hear that kind of comment it's in regards to muslims.

Either way, the point is, yes it could be worse, the men ruling the scene could be selling us into sex slavery, but here the men... still rule the scene. Just because your owner doesn't beat you, doesn't make you any less property. (yes that is hyperbole.)