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I like it better than the last one

It's good, but I don't see the need with the discussion thread

It's not going to go anywhere good, just lock it now.

[Bohandas]

...are you saying there isn't a huge amount of religious variance? And that, even in the same faith, people can hold radically different views such as "God is physical" compared to "God is transcendent and metaphysical."...

Speaking of which...

All Christians + Closely Related Faiths:
What do you consider to be the cutoff between what is and isn't Christianity? For example, would you agree that Mormonism is legitimately christian? What about Gnosticism? Regla de Ocha? Rastafarianism?

[Orange Wizard]

All Christians + Closely Related Faiths:
What do you consider to be the cutoff between what is and isn't Christianity? For example, would you agree that Mormonism is legitimately christian? What about Gnosticism? Regla de Ocha? Rastafarianism?

Any religion that has Christ Jesus as its central figure is Christianity, ostensibly. Personally, I'd prefer to draw a line at "based around the Bible", but then I'd have to add clauses about Satanism for the sake of completeness.

[TheDarkStar]

From a brief glance over Wikipedia (and being LDS (Mormon) myself), I'd say that they are all Christian as long as they worship/believe in Christ in some way. As Gnosticism is a broad category of religions, some religions in it are Christian and some are not, but your other examples are Christian (unless I skimmed the Wikipedia pages too fast).

[scrdest]

As for me, I feel I've seen plenty of evidence and more coming every day that I believe Christianity is correct.

Such as?

I find there are some pretty good arguments for a creator of some sort, such as certain creatures exhibiting physiology that is incredibly advanced(Read up on the flaggelum for something mind blowing if you have not already), to apparant evidence against evolution actually being the driving force for creatures existing(I read up on something called the 'Cambrian Explosion', where most relevant species just appear in the course of a far shorter period of time compared to the requirements for evolution), If anything I look at the big bang as a sign of 'something powerful did this and the fact we can't chart before it says it doesn't come from our reality', and then there's a smattering of personal experiences to reinforce the faith like getting trapped outside and praying for help... Then my dad at that very moment coming down from the second floor of our house to let me in.

 I could go on. But those would be the ones that seem to most reinforce it for me while staying relevant to today.
 If there's anything speaking against some of those things I mentioned, I would like to hear them.

Just chiming in, the flagellum is an AWFUL argument against evolution, as an eye was before, and for the same reasons. The only reason it's still used is because of the ignorance of the actual explanation of their origins (or even denial thereof).

The flagellum has originated in an organellum completely unrelated to motion, and as-is, it exhibits a lot of similarity to the type three secretion system.

And Cambrian explosion is just evidence that *something* happened that sped up the rate of meaningful mutations, to which there are explanations far more satisfactory to Occam's Razor. The question is, which one of the hypotheses is the correct one.

[UXLZ]

Geez, six responses between when I started writing this and when I finished (expected because I started writing at the start of the day, left, and didn't return until now to finish it off. Everything will remain unaltered.)

As for me, I feel I've seen plenty of evidence and more coming every day that I believe Christianity is correct.

Such as?

I find there are some pretty good arguments for a creator of some sort, such as certain creatures exhibiting physiology that is incredibly advanced(Read up on the flaggelum for something mind blowing if you have not already), to apparant evidence against evolution actually being the driving force for creatures existing(I read up on something called the 'Cambrian Explosion', where most relevant species just appear in the course of a far shorter period of time compared to the requirements for evolution), If anything I look at the big bang as a sign of 'something powerful did this and the fact we can't chart before it says it doesn't come from our reality', and then there's a smattering of personal experiences to reinforce the faith like getting trapped outside and praying for help... Then my dad at that very moment coming down from the second floor of our house to let me in.

I'm not sure about the others since I don't have the time to read up on them, but that last one sounds an awful lot like confirmation bias. Also, the situation doesn't exactly sounds... Uncommon. Now, if you lived on a private island, and you had recently received news that your dad's plane had been shot down, as well as the fact that you were estranged and he had said that he was never going to see you again... In *that* case it might be something more meaningful, but otherwise... Well, I've opened the door for people before and I don't think they thought I was answering their prayers... Probably.

Now, with that out of the way, I'd like to mention something I've thought about at some point (do note that I'm Agnostic, also known as the 'Can'tmakeuptheirdamnmindeists'.)

Let's just assume there's one, utterly perfect, totally omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent(?) 'Deity' (like the Christian one.)
Another thing out of the way before I get more into this, I'm going to be referring to this deity as an "It", simply because I hold that (despite Englishes irritating habit of using the male pronoun for unspecified genders) any entity with a biological gender/sex is, by nature, imperfect. Unless It can swap between them at will, in which case... Still kinda imperfect. Something interesting to realise is that a gem that is perfect from only one angle is not actually perfect. It must be perfect from every angle view able, and every angle not, to truly be said to be perfect.

Anyway, this is the story of why I find this idea religion (more specifically, the specific worship of this single, perfect entity. In the situation where there are multiple 'gods' things are different ) ridiculous. Other types of religions (Monotheistic, imperfect god, multiple imperfect gods, no gods, nature worship etc.) are fine. But the moment you put any entity that is Omnipotent and Perfect in Every Single Way Because It's So Awesome Like That  the entire concept just becomes laughable. (Sorry, Christianity, and other religions I probably haven't thought of. I'd also like to mention at this point that I mean no offence to people who are actually believe in these religions. You can write me off as a hedonistic, heretical idiot if you want or something like that.)
The reason for this is quite simple: something like that contradicts its own existence. For a being to be Utterly Perfect, then, as I said before, it must be perfect from every angle, yet that just can't happen. At least, not in our reality, or anywhere near it. (Were God is said to be, at least to my knowledge.)
Now, where has thinking led me? You may be wondering (or not. Either way...)
The conclusion is pretty simple.
Entities that are or similar to Gods/Deities are (I believe) capable of existing. It's pretty hard to swallow, yes, but I do think it's possible. However, this is the one condition I believe must be met under all circumstances. It must be imperfect. If there is one god or if there is many it does not matter, but whatever gods there may be must have a flaw. What that flaw is? It may be so minute as to be incomprehensible and imperceptible to humans, but it must exist.
The derivative of this conclusion is also quite simple. Using Christianity as an example once again because it's the easiest to pick on (sorry Christians), either:
Their God does not exist.
or
Their God is in some way flawed. (I believe they think It is utterly perfect, but I could be wrong. There are also quite a few subsections with varying beliefs, so...)
This holds true for any religion that holds its God or its Gods as utter perfect. Those Gods either do not exist, or are flawed.



Anyway, this whole block of rambling is just my random thoughts and is, of course, subject to change. I wouldn't be surprised if I'd forgotten one of the points I'd made and accidentally contradicted myself. xD

As to my question to those who believe?

What is the nature of your God? Is It all-loving, is It something that enjoys suffering? Does It have a greater plan? What reason does It have to exist?

[Arx]

The reason for this is quite simple: something like that contradicts its own existence. For a being to be Utterly Perfect, then, as I said before, it must be perfect from every angle, yet that just can't happen. At least, not in our reality, or anywhere near it. (Were God is said to be, at least to my knowledge.)

Why does it contradict its own existence? That doesn't make sense to me, could you elaborate?

[Vilanat]

Gotta admit that i, too, can't follow your reasoning.

Is the Universe perfect?

[TD1]

Well, for the personal experience thing, that's just coincidence. They happen to everyone. I daresay that these answers to prayers are far from regular, even if you are in the exact same circumstance? I'm glad when someone turns up and lets me in too, but I don't believe God somehow made them do it.

Well I did mention it was a 'smattering', I've had quite a few such coincidences occur to the point where it's very hard to believe mere random chance could be responsible. Again, at least for me.

And has anything bad ever happened to you when you thought it shouldn't? Was this bad coincidence also the work of God?

There is a huge universe out there. It's not unreasonable to assume that the unexpected will happen every now and then, and we shouldn't immediately assume that such things are the work of a mysterious being. Your father opening the door is a remarkably every-day thing.

[Vilanat]

When we look at stuff from our own very personal perspective, things do sometimes appear miraculous, but in the broader perspective, your father opening that door is not entirely different than you accidentally stepping on an ant. we don't stop and ask why did we step that specific ant?

[Arx]

Well, for the personal experience thing, that's just coincidence. They happen to everyone. I daresay that these answers to prayers are far from regular, even if you are in the exact same circumstance? I'm glad when someone turns up and lets me in too, but I don't believe God somehow made them do it.

Well I did mention it was a 'smattering', I've had quite a few such coincidences occur to the point where it's very hard to believe mere random chance could be responsible. Again, at least for me.

And has anything bad ever happened to you when you thought it shouldn't?

Interestingly, not that I'm aware of. The only times I can remember were when I was unreasonably expecting something to go right (and I do mean unreasonably, not just "oh it must have been unreasonble because it went wrong"), and so when it went wrong I was surprised.

[TD1]

You've never had a bird do...something...to your head? Never stepped in just the wrong place (Dog leavings, rubbish, etc.)? Never picked paper up just the wrong way and got a papercut? Never eaten food you were sure was fine and been sick? Never had a cold in summer?

There are a whole lot of things that are bad coincidences. If you'd waited a few minutes before getting into the car, you wouldn't have been in that car accident.

Bad things happen all the time. You don't say God did this (Well, I suppose you could say that but few people want to) and yet when something equally goes well, it's suddenly God's work.

[LordBucket]

the moment you put any entity that is Omnipotent and Perfect in Every Single Way Because It's So Awesome Like That  the entire concept just becomes laughable.

something like that contradicts its own existence. For a being to be Utterly Perfect, then, as I said before, it must be perfect from every angle, yet that just can't happen.

There's a simple way to reconcile the point you bring up. You even (indirectly) point it out yourself:

I hold that any entity with a biological gender/sex is, by nature, imperfect.
Unless It can swap between them at will, in which case... Still kinda imperfect

What if instead of swapping between them, it is both?

Let's just assume there's one, utterly perfect, totally omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent(?)

"Omniscient."

All knowing.

"Omnipotent"

All powerful.

"Omnipresent"

...present everywhere? What would be "present everywhere?"

Think of an ocean wave. You look at it, it's a single wave. It interacts with other waves as a single entity. Yet it is composed of trillions of trillions of water molecules. Look at your brain. It also behaves as a single entity, but it composed of trillions of cells. Look at your body. Composed of dozens of distinct organs and tissues, bones and fluids. And yet it too behaves as a single entity. Look at "you." An entity composed of a body, thoughts, emotions...things both physical and not physical. Yet these disparate things nevertheless act in concert as a singular whole entity.

Omnipresent

What is, by definition, present everywhere?

"Everything."

What if everything behaves as a collective, whole, singular entity composed of absolutely All That Is. Would that entity possess...

"Omniscience?"

Well, yes. Of course. It would literally be aware of everything because "all awareness" and "all things" would both be a part of it. Your awareness of these words on a screen. My awareness of the sensation of my clothes pressed against my body. The subtle vibrations of every grain of sand on every planet in the universe slowly grinding up against each other. "All" part of "All."

Would that entity possess..

"Omnipotence?"

Well, yes. Of course. All power that exists would be definition by part of it. In fact, this is a more literal interpretation of the word. "Omni" means "all." All potency. All potential. All power. And...

"Omnipresense."

Again, by definition. We're talking about everything, everywhere. Of course "the collective of everything everywhere" is "everywhere." And given what we know of the behavior of complex systems, even systems that we would intuitively describe as not intelligent tend to behave intelligently. Neural networks, for example. Ecosystems.

What more complicated system is there in the universe than the sum total of All That Is?

This also nicely reconciles the problem of evil. Why would a just god allow evil to exist? Because god is the evil. And the justice. And your arbitrary moralistic sensibilities that perceive senseless genocide as evil, but the imprisonment and murder of cows and chickens and corn and grass as good. All things. Omnipresence. Everywhere. Cows included. Grass included. The knife used as a murder weapon included. You, included.

Thou art God

Namaste

perfect

Perfect

"1) having all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics; as good as it is possible to be."

Any and all desireble elements, qualities and characteristics would be part of the collective that is All That Is.

"2) absolute; complete"

Yes.

[Arx]

You've never had a bird do...something...to your head? Never stepped in just the wrong place (Dog leavings, rubbish, etc.)? Never picked paper up just the wrong way and got a papercut? Never eaten food you were sure was fine and been sick? Never had a cold in summer?

There are a whole lot of things that are bad coincidences. If you'd waited a few minutes before getting into the car, you wouldn't have been in that car accident.

Bad things happen all the time. You don't say God did this (Well, I suppose you could say that but few people want to) and yet when something equally goes well, it's suddenly God's work.

I am, depending on how you look at it, ridiculously lucky or frequently aided by God.

I can count on one hand the number of times I've had papercuts. I can't remember ever having food poisoning. Everyone gets sick in summer, at least around here; and speaking of which, I haven't been sick for over a year. I've had birds hit my bag, but narrowly miss me. I've had cars come out of nowhere while crossing the street, but all of them stopped just before they hit me. I've never missed a bus. I've had a shard of glass the size of my chest bounce off my hand without breaking the skin before stabbing fifteen or twenty centimetres into the ground. I've broken a window once in my life, despite years of playing cricket with a hard ball in gardens edged along one side with windows, and that includes the time the bat flew out of my hands and bounced off the wall a few centimetres away from the windowframe. I've run full-tilt into a glass door without breaking it or hurting anything more than my ego. The bond for the house I'm living in went through five minutes before the offer to buy expired. I've had a guy pull open the car door while it was stopped and try to grab something; he didn't get it out.

On the other hand, I can't think of any major bad things that have happened to me that weren't pretty obviously my fault. There certainly aren't enough to compare with the number of things that could easily (arguably, should) have ended with me in hospital or some other awkward situation that just... didn't.

[TheDarkStar]

I've had bad things (not any life-threatening ones, luckily) happen to me before, but I've already seen how some of them have been good for me in the end. Frequent moving when I was younger might have made it difficult to keep friends for more than a few years, but I gained a large amount of experiences in varying cultures and I learned to get along with people well. Bad things can often end up doing some good.

Edit: Basically, bad things happening doesn't mean that God is evil.

[TD1]

No, it doesn't mean God is evil (though it indicates perhaps a slight carelessness.) What it does show is that good coincidences happen about as often as bad ones. As such, you can't really call a coincidence a miracle. (or personal religious experience.)