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Author Topic: Religion Questions Thread  (Read 56965 times)

LordBucket

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Re: Religion Questions Thread
« Reply #120 on: December 17, 2014, 01:05:46 am »

Silthuri: solitary practitioner of Eclectic Wicca

Do you believe that All is One? If so, why do you then venerate and possibly worship the Lord and the Lady...rather than All?



Cheeetar: Hard Atheist

You claim to not believe in God god. Quote: "firmly believes there is no god" Ok. Define "god."

Cheeetar

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Re: Religion Questions Thread
« Reply #121 on: December 17, 2014, 01:46:03 am »

Defining god: The originator of the universe which exists outside the universe.
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Reelya

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Re: Religion Questions Thread
« Reply #122 on: December 17, 2014, 02:31:21 am »

"Outside the universe". The idea of heaven as some other-dimensional place (and the very idea of other dimensions) is modern, and decidedly non-biblical. Under the Ptolemaic system, people believed that the angels literally lived outside the celestial sphere which had the stars stuck on: in the "heavens", and God therefore also lived there. Hell was literally down in the magma.

So the basic question about Judgement day, the day all the dead rise from the literal ground and are judged. After that day all the "chaff" are cast into hell, and the rest live in paradise. To me, it makes more sense that this meant the Earth was to be purged and all the good people who ever lived would live on a paradise Earth (basically a rebuilt Garden of Eden). This seems to be more consistent with bible verses than the idea that we're meant to live up in the sky after judgement day or on some ethereal plane (there is no biblical support for ethereal planes existing).

Orange Wizard

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Re: Religion Questions Thread
« Reply #123 on: December 17, 2014, 03:32:41 am »

All Christians

I was thinking today in school. If the creation story is just the bible's way of describing it, and that it's just a story shows how evolution may go hand in hand with it, then why did Jesus have to die for our sins? I think the whole purpose of that was he was dying for original sin, thus letting us repent of our own sins by ourselves and thus achieve heaven.
That's an interesting question. I'm afraid I don't actually have an answer for you. I guess we could cheese it and say that even if animals/plants evolved, it doesn't mean humans did (missing link, et cetera) and we could shoehorn in Adam and Eve after the fact.
Alternatively: "it's metaphorical, duh".
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chaoticag

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Re: Religion Questions Thread
« Reply #124 on: December 17, 2014, 03:39:48 am »

Not sure i understand when you say you believe all knowledge was spiritual knowledge. do you mean all education and encouragement of education was for religious education/spiritual knowledge, or that all knowledge at the time was actually considered spiritual knowledge, even areas we now see as worldly?

Also, may i ask where are you from? (Hope its not a violation of your privacy)
I'm from the UAE. But well, look at it this way, a doctor could improve your health. I had believed that reading the first sura of the quran could also help do the same thing. Both represent a way of manipulating the world, so both are truths as far as I was concerned. Why call one worldly and the other spiritual? Both were ultimately created by God, as God is the Ultimate Creator of all that is, and are Godly knowledge that allow one to perform good works to secure a place in the afterlife.
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Grek

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Re: Religion Questions Thread
« Reply #125 on: December 17, 2014, 03:48:23 am »

Signing up to answer questions! I would classify myself as an antetheist. That is, I believe that no gods currently exist, but that they may exist in the future and that we ought to strive to ensure that only good gods will come into being. Ask away!
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Arx

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Re: Religion Questions Thread
« Reply #126 on: December 17, 2014, 05:22:20 am »

Grek:

That's an unusual belief. How do you believe gods will come into existence? And what kind of gods- similar to ancient mythologies?
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Grek

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Re: Religion Questions Thread
« Reply #127 on: December 17, 2014, 06:57:16 am »

Definitely not like ancient mythologies. I'm using god in the sense of a superhuman being who is, for most practical purposes, an almighty and all-knowing ruler of the universe. Not necessarily omnipotent and omniscient in an absolute sense, but relatively powerful enough and intelligent enough that it can do whatever it wants without us being able to meaningfully contest its choices. I feel that there is good reason to believe that no such being currently exists (or, at least, does not interact meaningfully with the universe) but substantially less reason to believe that such a being is physically impossible or that one couldn't come to exist. Likewise, there's no reason to believe that such a powerful being would automatically care about humans or be in any way the sort of almighty god that we want ruling over the universe. What we can say with near certainty though is that whatever god does end up existing, it probably won't end up acting like, for example, Zeus.

As for possible origins, here's the top three contenders in order of how I rate their likelihood:

1. Artificial General Intelligence is created. If humans manage to make a machine that is more intelligent than a human, that machine could go on to create a second machine that is more intelligent than it is and so on and so forth until we have a machine that is effectively all-knowing. From perfect knowledge (or at least very very very much knowledge), it's a quick step to becoming almighty at least as far as humans are concerned: an in depth understanding of human psychology/sociology or a practical implementation of molecular nanotechnology would probably suffice for the mightiness requirement. The issue here, then is making sure that the top level, "final" AGI ends up valuing human values and wanting humans to be happy. Which in turn requires that each of the predecessor stages has those values, which in turn requires that the initial superhuman AI has those values, which in turn requires that the AGI programmers, whoever they end up being, are capable of ensuring that the AI they create has those values, which in turn requires that those AGI programmers understand what exactly "human values" means on a complete, lucid and highly technical, "can program a computer to give sound moral and aesthetic advice" level. Which is a really really difficult problem that urgently needs solving if we don't want the AGI to end up like something out of Allen Ginsberg or Harlan Ellison.

2. Intentional Panspermia is true. This hypothesis suggests that some extraterrestrial intelligence intentionally placed the first self-replicating molecules on Earth and then stopped interfering and allowed evolution to take its natural course. This isn't so much a case of gods not existing, as them not intervening until some milestone they've defined is reached - like us finding them via interstellar travel, for example, or passing some arbitrary time limit until the experiment they're running is over or any number of other things. There's a variety of good reasons to suppose this is not the case (particularly the Miller–Urey abiogenesis experiment), but even it it happens to be false, the steps needed to prepare for meeting such a creator species if it exists would be excellent practice for dealing with any other extraterrestrials that happen to exist, or other non-human minds such as animal uplifts or AGIs if we ever do that. Step one on the todo list is rigorously replicating Miller–Urey so that we can be sure whether panspermia happened or not. Then we need to figure out how to effectively communicate with a completely alien mind. This is in a way the opposite of the AGI problem. Where with the AGI we need to figure out what all of the specifically human moral and aesthetic values are and how to replicate them, in this situation we're looking for arguments which are cognitively general rather than human specific. Logical arguments that will be convincing to whatever strange alien lifeforms that might exist out in space, completely divorced from our evolutionary, cultural and cognitive history. An alternative would be to go with Option 1 first: Make an AGI to protect us from our hypothetical alien creators. This is risky, in that credible attempts making an AGI might be the trigger condition for the intervention of whoever is behind the panspermia.

3. The Simulation Hypothesis is true. This is another hypothesis that doesn't appear to be true (though there's no experimental evidence, there's good epistemological reasons to reject it) but if it is that is very important to find out. Unfortunately, short of trying to communicate with whoever is running the simulation, there doesn't seem to be any way to determine experimentally if the universe is being controlled from the outside. As with Option 2, making an AGI and asking it to try talking to whoever is hypothetically behind the simulation is an option, but a dangerous one: If the "outside" universe where the simulation is being run has an AGI (or other god) of its own, that AGI might well decide to turn off our simulation before we manage to make an AGI capable of escaping it. If not, the researchers might try scuttling any AGI attempts. Given how unlikely this situation is to be true and how little we can do about it if it were, there's not much sense in worrying about this case.


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Vilanat

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Re: Religion Questions Thread
« Reply #128 on: December 17, 2014, 09:50:13 am »

Not sure i understand when you say you believe all knowledge was spiritual knowledge. do you mean all education and encouragement of education was for religious education/spiritual knowledge, or that all knowledge at the time was actually considered spiritual knowledge, even areas we now see as worldly?

Also, may i ask where are you from? (Hope its not a violation of your privacy)
I'm from the UAE. But well, look at it this way, a doctor could improve your health. I had believed that reading the first sura of the quran could also help do the same thing. Both represent a way of manipulating the world, so both are truths as far as I was concerned. Why call one worldly and the other spiritual? Both were ultimately created by God, as God is the Ultimate Creator of all that is, and are Godly knowledge that allow one to perform good works to secure a place in the afterlife.

Ah, i see. so in essence, worldly sciences are also like pursuing godly knowledge.

Do muslims encourage a certain direction for their education? putting more emphasis on the religious/spiritual parts of knowledge over the worldly parts, for example?

I am asking this again, because i am not sure i understood the previous answer you gave. you mentioned that some historians believe that the muslim that emphasized education have enabled the islamic golden age, but could it had been a cultural reason rather than religious? i know i have said previously that religious background can not be separated from cultural background (the reason for the veil) but in the case of a spreading religions, usually one reason is stronger than the other. for example, women in pakistan or egypt probably never wore the same veil (or something similar) that women in the harsh conditions of the southern arabian peninsula had to wear, so we can assume the reason women in pakistan and egypt wear that veil, is a case of culture that was spread by religion, but in the case of scientific progress, the areas the islamic golden age flourished in were considered centers of wisdom and progress long before they became islamic, while the religious centers like mecca and medina didn't really become new centers of knowledge and progress thanks to islam.

Some cities shone on the expense of others and while some built a new by muslims, overall, there wasn't really a major shift in the general areas. i am not trying to downplay islamic golden age or the progress that was achieved during the golden age period, but what i am trying to understand is whether in the case of the importance of education and pursue of sciences, it might had been the culture that affected the religion rather than religion affecting culture?
« Last Edit: December 17, 2014, 11:30:40 am by Vilanat »
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chaoticag

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Re: Religion Questions Thread
« Reply #129 on: December 17, 2014, 11:32:57 am »

It really depends on the parents. It's, well, in my case, my mother wanted me to be a medical doctor, and if not that, an Imam. Well, used to, though I think she wouldn't mind me being an Imam still. Other than that, I'm not really sure. I do come from a family that's proud top be an educated one, and one of the first to pursue education. So yeah, kinda wish it was the case all throughout, but I'm really not so sure about the state of things out of the UAE. Education tends to be a priority in schools, while there's also mandatory courses in Islam and Arabic for citizens, unless they happened to be Christian or Jewish. It kinda followed to the university classes taught here, although I don't think those are state mandated. As a result not too sure how a typical Muslim raises their kid, but it tends to be likely that some study of the Quran follows if you live here. I know my parents hired a tutor for us, and sessions involved proper pronunciation and recitation, memorization, and explanation of its passages.

As to whether certain directions are encouraged, as far as general trends go, we are told we wanna do well in class, and I run into a lot of incredulity on the Theory of Evolution. I don't think we've quite hit a moment where people would want to ban set theory yet at least. I do wanna knowledge that part of the reason we might focus on education here though is part of the nationalism push when the country was founded, so I dunno. I also haven't met anyone that had gone to a school that focuses only on Islamic studies, though those exist. Not sure if they exist here, but I know some North African countries have them, as well as Pakistan.
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TD1

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Re: Religion Questions Thread
« Reply #130 on: December 17, 2014, 02:45:21 pm »

All Christians

I was thinking today in school. If the creation story is just the bible's way of describing it, and that it's just a story shows how evolution may go hand in hand with it, then why did Jesus have to die for our sins? I think the whole purpose of that was he was dying for original sin, thus letting us repent of our own sins by ourselves and thus achieve heaven.
That's an interesting question. I'm afraid I don't actually have an answer for you. I guess we could cheese it and say that even if animals/plants evolved, it doesn't mean humans did (missing link, et cetera) and we could shoehorn in Adam and Eve after the fact.
Alternatively: "it's metaphorical, duh".

What's metaphorical, exactly?

As for animals/plants evolving...I think it's rather foolish to suggest humans didn't. Every other rule that pertains to animals pertains to us as well. Our very genes confirm it.

Were you to kill every single human above a certain height using a predator that could only see above a certain level (hypothetically, of course) the average human size would go down. Eventually, less and less tall children would be born. That's evolution, the changing of a species, and if it can happen in the future then it happened in the past.
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Bohandas

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Re: Religion Questions Thread
« Reply #131 on: December 17, 2014, 05:40:43 pm »

Likewise, there's no reason to believe that such a powerful being would automatically care about humans or be in any way the sort of almighty god that we want ruling over the universe.

That sounds kind of like the Cthulhu Mythos
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Religion Questions Thread
« Reply #132 on: December 17, 2014, 05:44:52 pm »

What's metaphorical, exactly?

As for animals/plants evolving...I think it's rather foolish to suggest humans didn't. Every other rule that pertains to animals pertains to us as well. Our very genes confirm it.

Were you to kill every single human above a certain height using a predator that could only see above a certain level (hypothetically, of course) the average human size would go down. Eventually, less and less tall children would be born. That's evolution, the changing of a species, and if it can happen in the future then it happened in the past.
The Garden of Eden story would be the metaphor. Unfortunately, saying that didn't actually happen pokes a couple of holes in the idea of original sin. I don't know how to reconcile the two.

It's also worth keeping in mind that the story was written down a very long time later, and that was probably just the best way of getting the point across to a bunch of uneducated primates.
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TD1

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Re: Religion Questions Thread
« Reply #133 on: December 17, 2014, 06:24:30 pm »

So "it's a metaphor, and Jesus died for something non-existent." or "it's real, and the observable process of evolution is false" or "It's a metaphor, and Jesus wasn't the son of God otherwise he'd know this, suggesting the entire Christian belief of Jesus to be false."

I can see which one seems more likely to me :/
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TheDarkStar

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Re: Religion Questions Thread
« Reply #134 on: December 17, 2014, 06:43:54 pm »

So "it's a metaphor, and Jesus died for something non-existent." or "it's real, and the observable process of evolution is false" or "It's a metaphor, and Jesus wasn't the son of God otherwise he'd know this, suggesting the entire Christian belief of Jesus to be false."

I can see which one seems more likely to me :/

The Bible doesn't specify exactly how God made animals  ;).

I'm thinking about signing up to answer questions, but I don't have much time. Should I sign up anyway and do what I can?
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