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Python

5 (29.4%)

C# or other version of C

12 (70.6%)

Total Members Voted: 16

[kytuzian]

Did they get around the fact that to run python you need a python interpreter installed separately?

There are programs to create .exe files for Python, and Python comes installed on Mac OSX and most Linux distributions.

[miauw62]

I would be willing to help. I have experience with Python, and dabble in C#. I do however have some experience with being maintainer for an open source project (tgstation), so I would say that I'm decent at writing maintainable code. Currently just PTW-ing.

E: Also, are we going to generate a random map? Or just a fixed map?

[LoSboccacc]

I would be willing to help. I have experience with Python, and dabble in C#. I do however have some experience with being maintainer for an open source project (tgstation), so I would say that I'm decent at writing maintainable code. Currently just PTW-ing.

E: Also, are we going to generate a random map? Or just a fixed map?

some fixed stilized interface with backing random data? i.e. one place you clock and you get a list of randomly generated nearby towns, along with costs and risk of sending a caravan. same for mines, you get a list of places to be prospected, generated randomly, but the interface and graphic for it stays more or less the same.

in a sense, not having a map but an internal list of resources/distance should go far enough for the first version, in my opinion.

I'd like to keep everything not about trading and economic abstract at first - for example if we get down to individual worker consumption and preferences we risk starting dwarf fortress 2 and that is just madness.

[dennislp3]

I personally would prefer to stay away from the dwarf/mountainhome setting. I don't mind the fantasy setting...but I am also not wanting this to get boxed into what seems to be a now generic formula for games looking to live off the DF name. Not that we are attempting that...I just feel we could accomplish more and be more creative if we didn't have the same format as DF.

Perhaps the player could pick their race and get bonuses for it? Then of course descriptions and what not of people and places would be different based on races.

Also perhaps we could redo the poll to be between C# and Python? that seems to be the consensus. I personally prefer the idea of C# so that we can use Unity. Primarily to ease the UI workload and when we get to it, the graphics workload (doesn't have to be 3d).

[mainiac]

I'd like to keep everything not about trading and economic abstract at first - for example if we get down to individual worker consumption and preferences we risk starting dwarf fortress 2 and that is just madness.

This isn't supposed to be a dwarf fortress clone, much more limited and not that overlapping even.

I dont think modeling individual worker consumption is necessarily too detailed.  Just because you are tracking what they are spending doesn't mean you are tracking where they are every minute of the day and how they feel about the quality of their table.

I personally would prefer to stay away from the dwarf/mountainhome setting. I don't mind the fantasy setting...but I am also not wanting this to get boxed into what seems to be a now generic formula for games looking to live off the DF name. Not that we are attempting that...I just feel we could accomplish more and be more creative if we didn't have the same format as DF.

Open to suggestions for alternative settings.  This is the brainstorming phase so let the storms run free.

[Helgoland]

Why not a trader sim, with the player travelling between villages whose inhabitants are either modelled individually or stochastically? It would provide a more varied experience than being confined to one location and at the same time removes any overlap with currently implemented DF features. Plus it can easily be adapted to a variety of settings, so future game devs can use it to make their games' economies more lifelike.
Again, look at that flash game I posted earlier - it's rather close to what I meant.

[mainiac]

Again, look at that flash game I posted earlier - it's rather close to what I meant.

It is one of the better examples of a trader sim.  I think that letting the player meddle with the means of production and not just trading helps brings the feeling of the economy to life but that could be done through the trading sim format.  I could even see a lot of the ideas I put forward in that post being used in the trading sim format, i.e. give the player a homebase but make them keep traveling.  The player could trade in an interface like in Merchant Prince II but with the town economies tracked in a more interesting fashion.

[Shadowlord]

For me, it would be more interesting to have a game that starts around the industrial revolution, and allows player to contribute to or direct an alternate history where the player(s) could affect how government / regulation develops (e.g. by influencing the people in power, or voters, etc), in addition to making choices regarding wages and prices. Regulation, and company policy, could cover things like using things during production which are harmful to workers, or things that are harmful to the consumer (such as lead), how much to spend avoiding pollution, workplace safety, compensation for injured workers, and various other things that a company would have to decide on.

A way to enable tweaking government policy would be to allow players to move between corporations, lobbying, and government, much like people do in the real world.

All of that could factor into how people in the simulation live, how healthy they are, how educated they are and how well off they are, how fast resources are being depleted, soil depletion (farming methods used), pollution of waterways (farm runoff and other pollution), etc.

I'd also include energy policy and global warming as something that could be included and modeled (trying to find ways to avoid it could be a goal, especially if most companies in the game are purely profit driven).

Problems with all this: This is all getting really complicated and I for one understand little about how you could accurately simulate any of that (it seems like economists can't even agree on what a certain policy is going to do, which could present problems with trying to figure out how to accurately model anything).

I have no idea whether there's a market for this kind of game, whether singleplayer or not.

[mainiac]

Sounds a lot like Victoria II.  While I would loooove to make Victoria III that's a tad bit ambitious for the moment.  But look on the bright side, development of ideas for a simpler trading sim or business sim could eventually lead to a grand simulation like you are talking about.

[LoSboccacc]

youp at the end of the day we need to start with something in the realm of possible.

the three big areas of a econsim - production, trading, politics - are each big enough.

that's not to say we should never reach the perfect world simulation, but we should stick to one area in depth to begin with and eventually expand to the others.

I'd say trading would make a better base to start from, as would force us to solve the spatial problems up front. say, something as patrician but mainly land based (and with abstract goods movement) either fantasy or steampunk or whatever settings have you.

[dennislp3]

I am putting together a proper poll on another website that I will put here as soon as I am done to help streamline some of this stuff.

[mainiac]

I guess the "other" category in the last thread included a lot of C votes.

[dennislp3]

http://freeonlinesurveys.com/s.asp?sid=33v96iz9itd9yau585497

Proper survey

in regards to "other" programming languages I think we are better served with python, C#, or another "modern"/"easy" language. Personally for the scope and sake of our little project I see no real benefits to C/C++ other than over complicating the project.

[BlindKitty]

I have filled the survey. I've also voted for 'other' here, meaning C# - for anybody already proficient in C++, there should be no problem to learn C#, while this is not true in the other direction. Also, if we really need a lot of speed at some point, there is always possibility of putting raw C++ in C# codebase, pre-compiling C# binaries, stuff like that. Also, much easier to find the right library, as there are many already being a part of .NET platform, and we can even delegate some of the work to other CLS compliant languages, even Python if need be (look: Iron Python). It can also (relatively) easily become a basis for multiplayer game - look: ASP.NET. There are even some free hostings for ASP.

And about the game itself - I was actually thinking about the production/trading high level sim in the vein of Simunomics/Capitalism. But hey, I'm not going to complain (too much) if we choose something else. I would only prefer it being at least industrial enough to form proper chains of production - medieval era wasn't too rich in those, unless we are going to get really fine-grained in products...

[dennislp3]

That's why I prefer it to be more of a kingdom/city/guild type management in the medieval era.

It avoids making everything super abstract like capitalism where everything is just...spreadsheets essentially. Mostly because nowadays that is what it all is. Everything is done on computers and its so world wide there is no room for finer small details.

it gives us a lot of freedom with outside influences of trade. I feel the economy was probably far more volatile back then in regards to regional trade and what not.

It allows us the proper detail we need. In a medieval setting most cities are in the low thousands at most and villages in the hundreds at most which means if we want to or feel the need to simulate people and consumption of more specific products it can be reasonable to do so.

Finally for production chains, when dealing with a guild or town or country you have the ability to gather the proper work forces and materials to make an industry of things