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[Radio Controlled]

So basically, you want: 24 tokens' worth of equipment, plus the cost for making the entire suit into a radiator, minus some arm strenght, for a total of 5 tokens. Is that about correct?

[Sean Mirrsen]

Heh. How much does Lars's super-LESHO-equipped suit cost, again?

[Radio Controlled]

I'm not judging, just asking. If you ask me, battlesuit variants that come with massive weapons for no extra cost and very little lost functionality aren't a good idea either. I'll bring it before the council.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Fair enough. But, basically, yes. 15 token already gets you a whole lot more with the Assault Suit, than 10 tokens gets you with the MkIII. Five token on top for extra firepower - auxiliary firepower at that, it won't last in a firefight - seems reasonable enough.

[Radio Controlled]

But 5 tokens for 24 in exchange sounds a bit excessive to me. I mean, integrating a single PEW is also an option for example, and that would mean a buyer still wins 7 tokens.

[Sean Mirrsen]

But 5 tokens for 24 in exchange sounds a bit excessive to me. I mean, integrating a single PEW is also an option for example, and that would mean a buyer still wins 7 tokens.

I thought of doing just one, but it really adds more confusion than needed. Which arm would that be? How is the strength reduction handled in that case? Plus making it both arms just makes sense, from a design standpoint.

And with those 5 token you're also losing half the strength of the suit (granted, a BS is also 15 token), and you still need a primary weapon. It's just a package deal, it's not a DIY tinker project. Making it cost 25 token would still put it well beyond cost parity, and would put it 5 token short of an Avatar. The costs in ER rarely "add up". You upgrade from a Mk2 to a MkIII for 5 token, when the exoskeleton alone costs 8, nevermind the rocket pods. MACS has the same problem, if viewed that way.

[Empiricist]

If you remove the two kinetic amplifiers and the electrified surface system, you could cut the token gain down to 10.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Hm, yes, by the way. I'd probably not cut the electric defense system, but losing the kinamps makes sense - you're not buying a pair of long-range battlesuit-killer weapons to wade into melee combat with them.

[Parisbre56]

But 5 tokens for 24 in exchange sounds a bit excessive to me. I mean, integrating a single PEW is also an option for example, and that would mean a buyer still wins 7 tokens.

Again, look at Toaster's Super Lesho. That thing is way more than 20 tokens worth but has very limited use. I think it's just either 5 nukes or 10 normal rounds. Which would probably only be used for AT or AA. And the suit has to anchor itself.

If you say that because the arm acts as a barrel then you have to fire compressed shots only it's a weapon with an  identical role that trades some pluses and minuses for some other pluses and minuses. The PEW has infinite ammo and doesn't have to deploy but it can only fire twice per minute, has shorter range, can't act as a mortar, can't deal with crowds, deals less damage and is more of an energy weapon than a kinetic one. If you think that's still too much you can say that to prevent overheating you can only fire 5 shots in a row or something like that.

think this is somewhat backwards, actually.  Modularity reduces cost, because your tanks, APCs, AA vehicles, etc. all use the same production lines.  In trade, it usually lowers the effectiveness of any given vehicle, because none of them were entirely purpose built only for their role.  Radio's correct if you're trying to make fully effective yet also modular vehicles, though.

That's what I meant, higher price if you wanna keep effectiveness the same, because you gain versatility.

But in missions you can afford a relatively lower quality vehicle, unlike war, because assuming assuming even part of a vehicle survives, it will mean a lower long term price, because you don't have to get a new vehicle for each mission, just replace the parts you need for it.

Also, I have nothing to spend my tokens on except an AT weapon or an amp/manip or start saving money for a mythril coating but I don't feel I really need that. I'd feel much better spending my tokens on something for the team.

[Radio Controlled]

Excess tokens can always be donated to the team fund 

I also mentioned to the council/pw again the idea to make the avatar more expensive, something pw himself has said ought to be the case. I'd pay the difference back of course, and it'd allow us some more wiggle room.

And sure, I acknowledge some battlesuit variants also get better value than the standard one, and that token efficiency goes up as you go up the equipment ladder. But again, 24 tokens of equipment for 5! Giving it just one still saves you 7 tokens, not a bad deal. Just pick whatever arm, and live with the fact that one arm is then weaker than the other, not that big a deal.

And all the comparisons with the lesho bs might be true, but then again, that thing is also majorly imbalanced. The council didn't exist back then, or I certainly would've brought that up.

[Parisbre56]

I don't always like the way the team fund works and I don't really like arguing about how it should be used. I'd prefer to make my own choice along with my teammates on how my money gets spent instead of having my spending be approved by some central authority.

And do you really think that making equipment MORE expensive is the way to go? When almost everyone is level 1 and 2 newbies? Do you want them to never catch up? I thought the whole point of making the BS and other equipment like that cheaper was to make it easier for new people to get more powerful equipment once they have the stats for it, because missions will keep getting harder.

Also, the Lesho suit trades some equipment for some other equipment. It's a package deal that's cheaper. It's a trade, giving up modularity and multi-prose equipment for specialization. Battlesuit equipment is like that. Because otherwise, why isn't the flying and melee battlesuit more expensive than the normal one? Or the cutting laser one that can cut buildings in half?

The answer is because battlesuit price is determined in TOKENS. Not resources. That means that you do not judge how much it costs but rather how useful and powerful it is (resources are important of course and play a part in determining price, but they are a secondary concern). That goes for all equipment, which is something I sadly see often be forgotten when people are designing equipment. Balance, usefulness and versatility should be what determines its price, not the cost of  individual pieces of equipment. Think of it as a function that goes usefulness=tokens^2. For what you're proposing we'd need to have a  function that goes tokens tokens=sum of individual components*0.8 (or maybe a function that gives a larger discount the more equipment you put in there.

Isn't balance why you chose to Nerf syv's rifle, even though it should had either been more powerful or cheaper? It's the same thing here. The thing's cost should be determined primarily by power, usefulness and versatility, not cost of  individual components that make it up. That's a secondary concern.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Excess tokens can always be donated to the team fund 

I also mentioned to the council/pw again the idea to make the avatar more expensive, something pw himself has said ought to be the case. I'd pay the difference back of course, and it'd allow us some more wiggle room.

And sure, I acknowledge some battlesuit variants also get better value than the standard one, and that token efficiency goes up as you go up the equipment ladder. But again, 24 tokens of equipment for 5! Giving it just one still saves you 7 tokens, not a bad deal. Just pick whatever arm, and live with the fact that one arm is then weaker than the other, not that big a deal.

And all the comparisons with the lesho bs might be true, but then again, that thing is also majorly imbalanced. The council didn't exist back then, or I certainly would've brought that up.

You are, again, looking at this entirely wrong. Equipment should be counted as the sum of its parts, not a sum of its parts' prices. It's just the way the ER armory "ladder" is set up. You don't spend nearly as many tokens buying a high-cost piece of equipment than you would pay to replicate that piece of equipment using its individual parts.

Like I pointed out earlier, just buying the exoskeleton to add to your Mk2 will put the combined cost of your gear over that of a Mk3, before you try to buy rockets. And if you buy a Mk3, just buying two kinetic amps will put your total spending above the cost of a Battlesuit/Assault Suit, which comes with them built in, and a whole lot more armor and power to go with it.

If you strip the kinetic amps from the suit, you're losing 6 tokens worth of gear, and paying 5 extra, for a suit with halved strength. For effectively a 50% discount on two integrated weapons, which you still need to supplement with something you can use anytime, rather than twice a minute. It's really about as fair a deal as you can make with this setup.

pre-edit: ninjas!
edit: added quote to make it clear(er) to whom I'm replying.

[piecewise]

There's a button here marked "Nuke Hephestus".

I'm standing over it, stroking my chin in a thoughtful manner.



BTW, Avatars now cost 50 tokens.

Everyone blame sean~

[Sean Mirrsen]

It's not like we've had a terrible lot of good things happening here anyway.

Also, huzzah! Now the suit can cost 27 token, and R_C won't complain!

[Hapah]

There's a button here marked "Nuke Hephestus".

I'm standing over it, stroking my chin in a thoughtful manner.

Make your dreams come true!