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[Pancaek]

And a question yet again. Can kinamp work as protection from solid projectiles? We face it towards the action, and when the bullet hits it, the force felt by user is decreased. If I'm getting it right that there's not much difference between hitting a piece of metal with kinamp and kinamp with piece of metal.

Keep in mind that kinetic amp is size of post stamp and covering surface of armor with them is gonna be damn expensive.

I think someone tried something like that once already. I believe it was insanely expensive and the moving in it caused some sort of chain reaction that left the user a red smear on the ground.

[Hapah]

Sounds like par for the course, really.

[Comrade P.]

And a question yet again. Can kinamp work as protection from solid projectiles? We face it towards the action, and when the bullet hits it, the force felt by user is decreased. If I'm getting it right that there's not much difference between hitting a piece of metal with kinamp and kinamp with piece of metal.

Keep in mind that kinetic amp is size of post stamp and covering surface of armor with them is gonna be damn expensive.

I think someone tried something like that once already. I believe it was insanely expensive and the moving in it caused some sort of chain reaction that left the user a red smear on the ground.

Sounds not good. Scratch that idea.

EDIT: And what about the Dreadnought pattern concept I decribed? Is such thing even needed? I'm not quite sure.

[syvarris]

As to the Laser protection idea: We already have a type of armor that is functionally immune to lasers, and any other sort of energy weapon.  We call it 'Hexsand', and it's capable of literally eating plasma.  Also, while manipulators do provide a lot of interesting options for projects, they are almost universally more expensive than a mundane alternative, and potentially vastly more dangerous to the user.  Every incident on this page that involves the number nine shows how potentially catastrophic space magic can be.

As to the kin.amp idea... Well, umm.  They only multiply force put in on one side, and output it through the other.  While the underlying principle might be used to produce something like what you're talking about, it would likely take a custom design and a lot of time on Hephaestus--you sword people don't have access to the really secret tech like us.

I feel like I should mention that one guy once actually designed suit of scale mail, using unmodified kin amps for the scales.  He wore it in VR, and promptly exploded.  I never knew what he thought he was trying to do, but now I do.


As for your Dreadnought idea, well, it's practically identical to the Heavy Robotic Body that I already finished designing.  Seriously, the only differences are that mine has sleeves over the joints, and no head.  I'll agree with you that it's a good idea, which is why it's already been done.  :\

[Comrade P.]

Okay now. It is hard to come up with something new in a place full of people actively trying to do the same. But it's good to know I'm thinking in right direction with that robot body thing.

Now how about this thing:

Spoiler: Gauss-powered Amplified Universal Projectile Thrower (GAUPT) (click to show/hide)

A Gauss-powered slug is moving forward and back inside a shortened coil. It has a hammer with a kinamp, which hits a projectile inside the barrel, effectively multiplying its energy compared to regular Gauss shot, thus increasing effective range. GAUPT has variable variants of fire - single-shot, burst and full-auto fire. Note that in burst mode it shoves three projectiles from clip up to the barrel consecutively and then punches them, reducing the energy of each projectile (and therefore range) as well as making them scatter, turning the weapon in a kind of shotgun. It has adjustable barrel width and receiver options, allowing to set burst capacity and use various ammunition types:

    GAUPT rounds - the smaller version of Gauss rounds. Can be fired without usual Gauss kickback, making full-auto sound like a good idea. Nothing like storm of iron, amirite? Those come in clips of 25 rounds or in helical magazines of 80 [4 Strength required, 5 for Full-Auto].
    Standard Gauss rounds in Gauss rifle-fitted clips - they bring Gauss kickback back, though they bring along additional power as well.
    It is technically possible to reach the breach of the barrel without disassembling weapon, so anything you can fit in barrel, actually, will be punched at extreme velocity towards enemy, given you have power source to activate the mechanisms. An option for desperate ones.

Rules for various shooting settings

GAUPT rounds: Melee -1 Short 0 Medium +1 Long -1 Extreme N/A

Three round Burst: Melee 0 Short +1 Medium +1

Four round Burst: Melee +2 Short +1

Improvised round: Melee: -1 Short +1 Medium -1, Single-shot only

Using regular Gauss rounds adds +1 to all the range modifiers on all shooting modes, but doesn't extend the range on extra categories.

Full-auto shooting with GAUPT rounds and standard Gauss rounds use require 4 strength or 10% chance of hurting self.

Burst shooting with Gauss rounds requires 5 strength or 20% chance of hurting self

Full auto fire with Gauss rounds requires 5 strength or 33% chance of hurting self

Has plenty of features. One rifle to shoot'em all.

[Radio Controlled]

Comrade, good on you trying to think of things. It might indeed seem sometimes like 'everything's been done' but that's just more incentive to get creative. And this game has run for a few years now, so yeah, A LOT of tinker has been done already.

[Parisbre56]

Just a clarification, the kinamp does not create an equal and opposite reaction. So you can't make very good armour out of it, since you'll feel the impact before the kinamp activates. But something like your rifle could be done.
http://einsteinianroulette.wikia.com/wiki/Kinetic_Amplifier

[Comrade P.]

Kinamp armor = bad idea, got it. The article is quite useful, thanks.

[syvarris]

Comrade, I like your idea to use kin.amps for gauss weapons.  Although, before you start discussing the exact fire rates and everything, you'll probably want to actually work out the design with Piecewise.  My suggestion is to keep in mind what your targets are--minimum cost, minimum effectiveness, what role it should occupy, etc--and try to design something that fits within those criteria.  For example, you might find that a gun with a helical 80-round magazine is far too unwieldy; after all, our basic gauss rifles fire 20mm rounds. 

A useful resource if you're pursuing this idea might be this page.  I wrote that... over a year ago, I believe, but most of the advice is still true.  Also, you can scroll down the page and see what the energy draw of various weapons are, including the kinetic amp.  It doesn't include the power draw of non-electricity things though.  Both manipulators and kin.amps seem to run on souls, and as such need batteries because we currently don't have any soul generators smaller than a schoolbus.


Now, onto actual tinkery thoughts about it: the GAUPT will have a high buy-in price, and therefore can't be a bottom tier weapon.  A kin.amp costs 3 tokens alone, so four or five tokens is a likely price for the completed weapon, assuming no other expensive parts.  Ammo could be a problem, since you will probably need some form of battery on top of the ammo's cost.  However, it does have the large advantage over gauss weapons of being able to fire non-magnetic items, which leave a lot of options for different ammo types.  We already have superior kinetic alternatives to gauss weapons, which only lose ammo versatility, so your gun could possibly become a staple.

TL;DR: Your gun will be more expensive than a gauss equivalent, but will be more flexible in it's role.

[Comrade P.]

Well, the flexibility was the governing characteristic I wanted to put in this gun. Let's see if I come up with any improvements or moves to cheap it down a little after I read the article. And Lord preserve us from 80 Gauss rounds helical magazines. I think that something 12mm will do nicely against light infantry, and that will make the difference which allows to get a larger magazine.

Spoiler: Meanwhile, have a graphic design (click to show/hide)

So many wiki articles... Gonna read them all.

EDIT: So, I have to either somehow fit a 4 TPU-worth generator into that, or increase the clip cost by adding a battery in each one, which also means I reduce the versatility, because then I won't be able use Gauss clips.
So how about I fit two regular Gauss rifle generators into it? It'll be costy, though, but there are actually three parts in this rifle that are actually costy - two generators and kinamp. Given a kinamp used there should be smaller than a postage stamp to fire the GAUPT projectiles without accidentally kicking the barrel, its should consume a bit less energy to function and be pretty autonomus with 2 TPU-generating source. It also might be cheaper to produce smaller kinamp.

EDIT_2: Earlier it was mentioned somewhere that infantry support machine would come in handy. So, I thought about making a gunship on ion engines. I thought about ion engines because we have very productive power sources available, so it would allow us to adapt them in a way where they use the atmospheric air as ion source while in, well, atmosphere, and interior fuel storages to fly in places without one. But we are talking mostly about supporting assaults on inhabited planets, right? So the second option is probably redundant.
The key assumption to this idea is that in ER we have much better power sources than we do nowadays IRL. It might be not cheap to build, but think about the resources and money saved on fuel!

[Sean Mirrsen]

EDIT_2: Earlier it was mentioned somewhere that infantry support machine would come in handy. So, I thought about making a gunship on ion engines. I thought about ion engines because we have very productive power sources available, so it would allow us to adapt them in a way where they use the atmospheric air as ion source while in, well, atmosphere, and interior fuel storages to fly in places without one. But we are talking mostly about supporting assaults on inhabited planets, right? So the second option is probably redundant.
The key assumption to this idea is that in ER we have much better power sources than we do nowadays IRL. It might be not cheap to build, but think about the resources and money saved on fuel!

Ion engines in atmosphere are something of a waste of resource - what you want is an electric thermal turbojet - or if you insist on having no moving parts, an advanced ionocraft of some form. Plus, beware of the seeming compactness of the power generators - as my experiments with the MkIII-A showed, they're not nearly compact enough so far.

[Comrade P.]

I'm not that much for ion engines, they just caught my attention at the moment I wrote that. It might be easier and cheaper to make good ol' helicopter and put some modern weaponry on it.

[syvarris]

@Comrade P

I think I might have been unclear on an important point- While the Kinetic Amp does draw electricity, it probably draws most of it's power from a different source.  It seems that it only takes 0.04 TPU per activation, which is a negligible cost to us.

It's very likely that the Kinetic Amp draws the majority of it's power from what amounts to a soul battery.  As in, literal human souls.  You sadly can't make those with just electrical generators, and in fact the smallest generators we have that are capable of manufacturing souls are the size of a bus.  So, you're going to need soul batteries that power the amp, alongside whatever ammo you use.

It's not a major cost--only one token for fifty shots--but it's unavoidable.

Also, you're unlikely to be able to make a cheaper variant of kinetic amp; Only people working on Hephaestus, like me and Sean, are allowed to mess with space magic boxes.  Plus, it's unlikely that the underlying operating method can be reduced in cost much without reducing the capability.  It's worth a shot, but it's unlikely to pan out.


As to propulsion, Sean knows more than me.

[Comrade P.]

Soul-powered. Huh. It's hard to get the idea, sorry for consecutive misunderstanding.

The weapon will require two unsynchronised ammo feeders then, which is a bad thing. And I don't want to get involved with space magic too much.
I'm giving up on GAUPT. There isn't enough potential in it to develop further, I think.

What is bluerad people in tinker are eager about?

EDIT: Wait a minute, what if we grow a concious sod brain to power kinetic amplifier with soul within? So when you pull the trigger you stimulate brain, and it activates kin.amp. Or sods don't actually have souls?
Nevermind, I guess.

[Parisbre56]

You need to find a human "volunteer" that would be available so that you can have his brain transformed into a weapon. And you can't just create a copy of his brain either, because the psychokinetic amplifier somehow understands that the brain is copied. You'd either need a steady stream of people willing to essentially have their brain converted into a weapon or some sort of farm where humans are raised and then slaughtered like cattle. So it's possible, but a bit expensive (not to mention morally questionable) and would take some time to do properly, since humans are a bit hard to find at the moment. We should build some flying saucers and start abducting people...

EDIT: Oh, and bluerad is a non-rechargeable crystalline battery with an incredible energy density. It essentially allows you to power giant machines with very small batteries, at the cost that you can't simply recharge the batteries, you actually have to create new ones. And it's highly radioactive, so large batteries (larger than a basketball) need shielding to be used by humans safely. On the other hand, batteries of that size could run a laser for weeks.