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[Parisbre56]

What if you went for something completely crazy scifi? Some sort of thing that ionizes the air so that it can attract it, heat it and then repulse it? It would certainly get rid of the fan, or at least make it less necessary. Or, I don't know, something else where you can just use space magic and some basic yet unexplored physics to get away with it.

EDiT: Oh, wait, someone has already thought of that, so it's actually viable: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionocraft

[Sean Mirrsen]

What if you went for something completely crazy scifi? Some sort of thing that ionizes the air so that it can attract it, heat it and then repulse it? It would certainly get rid of the fan, or at least make it less necessary. Or, I don't know, something else where you can just use space magic and some basic yet unexplored physics to get away with it.

My alternative propulsion solution is basically an electric turbojet engine. You know how way back when, the Soviets used a nuclear reactor to provide the heat for the operation of a direct-flow jet engine? And actually flew the thing?

Think the same thing, but replace the direct nuclear heating with aggressive plasmarization via the ionocraft principle and generally a generous application of electricity to heat the air. Electric turbine sucks air in and compresses it, plasmarizer heats it up, expanding hot air helps drive the turbine compressor. Standard turbojet, except burns only electricity and air. I call it an electric turbojet, or an electrojet turbine. Nobody made one IRL so far as I know, because it's a crazy idea without high-density power sources. But it passes a sanity check for feasibility, so it could work.

The suit would lose its stealthiness if it went this route, but it would become basically an atmosphere-limited MkIII without a fuel requirement. It'd carry a bigger generator to account for the high energy expenditure, and could probably carry Raduga or a cutting laser that it could itself provide the power for when the user is landed.

Make no mistake, it's a ludicrous idea as far as engineering is concerned. It'll take a whole lot of handwavy sciencing to make work, but it's no worse than the rest of the stuff we're making in that regard.

[Hapah]

I think Radio hit the nail on the head in his last Heph post, from the quick read I gave it.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Finally, I propose we take this conversation to the Hep OOC, ok?

Sure.

It doesn't have to be wetware controlled. That was just an option. I mean, in RL we have drones that are largely self-controlled with on-board silicon computers, with the human controller mostly there to make decisions, and less actual flying and aiming. That's what I would go for here: self controlled with computers, with the option to let human controller make decisions when full autopilot isn't feasible (remember we have snowglobe data full of AI research).

That just removes the control lag out of the equation - still leaves everything else. But yeah, that's kinda the way real life armies are leaning nowadays, right? It's quite alright, except...

Cause here's the thing, there is no good reason to have a humanoid suit for a job like this. The human form can do a lot of things well. Being aerodynamic or staying in the air for a long time is not one of them. And if you do want to make it use spess magic, a braincase is still an option. And how many of our allies are we gonna give unchecked access to spess magick? Basically, we'll need good quality control for whom we give amps, and if we're training amp users anyways, might as well add 'is willing to be put in a braincase' as a selection criterium.

...except why are you all over there still humanoid? By all rights you should have all been either directly integrated into purpose-built shells, or sitting in front of a row of monitors and joysticks, controlling a semi-self-sufficient robot army. I suppose it's because there's always things a purpose-built drone can't be prepared for. Remote drones are typically good only for the one mission they're sent out for.

That's also why MkIII's are so popular, and not the rocket-propelled metal coffins and rocketbikes. If you're in a vehicle, you can only do what the vehicle is designed to do. It may carry heavier firepower, thicker armor, better engines, but you still have to get out of it if you're doing something else - and have to somehow get back into it if the fighting starts again. With a MkIII, you're your own transportation, your own armory. Your own reentry vehicle, if need be. The MkIII-A isn't quite as versatile, but it's still transportation at the very least.

QEC solve all of these, and aren't too expensive according to pw. If still too expensive, fully computer controlled ought to work with ER tech.

QEC does solve that, yeah. QEC solves many things, but is it really cheap enough to install on drones? The used-by-the-hundreds kinda drones?

I don't think such a classic and rather easy design would take very long. Not as long as the time needed to get a suit working either way. I mean, how long did that take you? Did it need a science crew? And if it works well, I suspect the Sword crew might still have uses for it. More uses than for a propeller suit at least.

If it's classic and easy enough it should already exist. I mean, you basically want an electric Osprey.

And... you know, I'm usually not one to really point out things like this to others, but... I have a question.

What is the Council's purpose?

Is it really to decide the usability of a given project? Its potential strengths and weaknesses as related to its effectiveness and place in the field? Ultimately deciding whether or not a given device should be made?

I honestly thought the Council was there to help Piecewise make informed choices on the stats of the technology we tinkerers are proposing. Seeing how useful something is, how well it performs, and whether or not it's a total failure on the field? I thought that's what we have the battlefield testing for. That one could make a wildly impractical project with his own time and resources, have it sent for testing, and have it fail spectacularly, fair and square, if it's really that bad.

Guess I was wrong. >_>

[Radio Controlled]

What is the Council's purpose?

Is it really to decide the usability of a given project? Its potential strengths and weaknesses as related to its effectiveness and place in the field? Ultimately deciding whether or not a given device should be made?

I honestly thought the Council was there to help Piecewise make informed choices on the stats of the technology we tinkerers are proposing. Seeing how useful something is, how well it performs, and whether or not it's a total failure on the field? I thought that's what we have the battlefield testing for. That one could make a wildly impractical project with his own time and resources, have it sent for testing, and have it fail spectacularly, fair and square.

Guess I was wrong. >_>

Ha, I knew this day was coming!

Big point: Right now, I am speaking as myself, Radio Controlled. When I am speaking for the council, or acting on their behalf, I'll be mentioning as such clearly and obviously. The council helps pw decide if a thing should be possible. What I am asking, right now, is even if it's possible, why would we even want to?

I mean, I'm sure we can build an army of robotic poodles with acid saliva. But why the hell would we?

Detailed response being edited in.

...except why are you all over there still humanoid? By all rights you should have all been either directly integrated into purpose-built shells, or sitting in front of a row of monitors and joysticks, controlling a semi-self-sufficient robot army. I suppose it's because there's always things a purpose-built drone can't be prepared for. Remote drones are typically good only for the one mission they're sent out for.

Remember: if not for pw saying "preferably no" I'd have designed and ordered a small contingent of vehicles and air units already! Also, be careful: we were discussing needs for our npc army, and now you are speaking from a Sword-based perspective. Might wanna try not to mix those up. And yes, the fact that our missions vary so wildly is a reason, something an army has less problems with. Also the fact that, for us, we can't just all control QEC enabled robots from the safety off the sword for missions, because then the game doesn't really work (zero risk and such).

That's also why MkIII's are so popular, and not the rocket-propelled metal coffins and rocketbikes. If you're in a vehicle, you can only do what the vehicle is designed to do. It may carry heavier firepower, thicker armor, better engines, but you still have to get out of it if you're doing something else - and have to somehow get back into it if the fighting starts again. With a MkIII, you're your own transportation, your own armory. Your own reentry vehicle, if need be. The MkIII-A isn't quite as versatile, but it's still transportation at the very least.

Again, the needs of an army aren't the same as those of a merc group that faces such different missions. Can't really use that as an argument when you yourself say this is mostly for npc background stuff.

Secondly, a rocket bike is only 3 tokens cheaper. And while it has double the range, tell me, when's the last time pw kept an eye on fuel, or that someone ran out? It almost always only happens when the plot demands it or making things exciting, and no amount of fuel protects from that.

QEC does solve that, yeah. QEC solves many things, but is it really cheap enough to install on drones? The used-by-the-hundreds kinda drones?

You tell me, you are designing here. if not, a single QEC drone that communicates with the others with regular radio is an option perhaps.

If it's classic and easy enough it should already exist. I mean, you basically want an electric Osprey.

It does! We had a small fleet of autonomous robot drones for aerial reconnaissance during Hep defense. That's why we knew their exact movements at all times.

[Sean Mirrsen]

I'll wait for the edited response, but as for "why would we even want to", the answer is "Because the Spark says so."

Basically, do not question the ways of the mad inventor. He wants to have his design made and put to the test. If it fails, it fails because there was a reason for it to. It gives an opportunity to improve, to rethink, to iteratively advance the methods and approaches used thanks to the variables that come up in real usage. As someone too unimportant to be remembered by a true inventor once said, "I have not failed. I have merely found a thousand approaches that do not work." ^_^

(Also, I meant to direct that part about the Council's purpose more at the source of the quote PW provided for me.)

[Hapah]

Still at work but can add these couple things because phone conferences are boring:

As Radio said, I'm just speaking for myself, you asked for feedback. From where I'm sitting, it seems you are using the wrong tool for the job. It's like your a prisoner trying to escape, you have a spoon to tunnel through the wall, and instead of trying to find a rock hammer or a key you're aiming for a better spoon.

QEC: How many times do you think you'll lose those simple drones? If the mortality rate is that high for a target that small, what will happen to this new thing?

[Devastator]

To be honest, Sean, it's like you've got an invisible dragon in your basement.  If someone asks to see it, you say it's invisible.  If someone asks to hear it moving around, you say it's silent.  If someone asks to throw chalk dust on it to see the outline, you say it's permeable to chalk dust.  At some point there's nothing in the basement at all.  If the design of something requires so many caveats, at some point you are designing nothing at all.

[Hapah]

I would also like to ask that we keep things civil. This is just a game, after all.

[Devastator]

I would also like to ask that we keep things civil. This is just a game, after all.

Agreed.  It's no big deal and all.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Still at work but can add these couple things because phone conferences are boring:

As Radio said, I'm just speaking for myself, you asked for feedback. From where I'm sitting, it seems you are using the wrong tool for the job. It's like your a prisoner trying to escape, you have a spoon to tunnel through the wall, and instead of trying to find a rock hammer or a key you're aiming for a better spoon.

Pfheh. I'll have to remember that one. (Actually, it was used in Girl Genius quite recently. Like, maybe four or five strips ago. The "better spoon" thing.)

But, er, mostly I'm confused. A rocket-powered suit with limited range that works everywhere is fine. An electricity-powered suit that works in a significant half of the encounterable environments, with unlimited range and various tradeoffs to achieve it, suddenly isn't. It's a better spoon, yes, but it's a perfectly good spoon, despite being used as a digging tool, and unlike the rock hammers and keys, it's already all here, no need to go looking. Er, to misuse your metaphor.

QEC: How many times do you think you'll lose those simple drones? If the mortality rate is that high for a target that small, what will happen to this new thing?

I didn't say "losing". Just using, in large numbers. We're not implanting QEC into every robosod we make, after all. So the cost isn't negligible.

Remember: if not for pw saying "preferably no" I'd have designed and ordered a small contingent of vehicles and air units already! Also, be careful: we were discussing needs for our npc army, and now you are speaking from a Sword-based perspective. Might wanna try not to mix those up. And yes, the fact that our missions vary so wildly is a reason, something an army has less problems with. Also the fact that, for us, we can't just all control QEC enabled robots from the safety off the sword for missions, because then the game doesn't really work (zero risk and such).

You're saying that as if the NPC armies can't have their own mercenaries, special ops, humanity values, or weird traditions that cause them to march up to the big black gates of the nearest UWM base they can spot and duke it out with the defenders. I try not to pigeonhole things into any specific role. I'd rather have a design that works for everyone, and then some dedicated units for special circumstances.

Again, the needs of an army aren't the same as those of a merc group that faces such different missions. Can't really use that as an argument when you yourself say this is mostly for npc background stuff.

Mostly, yet not entirely. See above. And don't forget that the Sword's division is not the only merc group in the ARM forces, even right now.

Secondly, a rocket bike is only 3 tokens cheaper. And while it has double the range, tell me, when's the last time pw kept an eye on fuel, or that someone ran out? It almost always only happens when the plot demands it or making things exciting, and no amount of fuel protects from that.

That's mostly because people tend not to waste fuel, I'd say. PW abstracts away "minor usage", and only really limits things when things reach a certain scale - like getting to orbit, or flying a long distance in one go.

Though at this rate he'll abstract away even the ammo. Let's toss ammunition concerns out the window and give everybody rapid-fire rocket launchers!

You tell me, you are designing here. if not, a single QEC drone that communicates with the others with regular radio is an option perhaps.

I haven't touched QEC in a while. Saint's the one talking through it nowadays.

It does! We had a small fleet of autonomous robot drones for aerial reconnaissance during Hep defense. That's why we knew their exact movements at all times.

Well then, you don't even need Anton to do anything. Just search the VR database for generator-driven VTOL turboprop dropships of ye olden times, and you're set.

To be honest, Sean, it's like you've got an invisible dragon in your basement.  If someone asks to see it, you say it's invisible.  If someone asks to hear it moving around, you say it's silent.  If someone asks to throw chalk dust on it to see the outline, you say it's permeable to chalk dust.  At some point there's nothing in the basement at all.  If the design of something requires so many caveats, at some point you are designing nothing at all.

Wait, so which parts of the design are impossible, exactly? Ducted fan compact jetpacks work IRL, as demonstrated by the Martin Jetpack. Electric ducted fans are efficient enough for VTOL and high-speed flight, as demonstrated by Project Zero. A personal electric VTOL has been in development by NASA for a few years, but, eh. You know how NASA is with side projects these days. This is current-day technology, which the ER-verse is supposedly centuries ahead of. Even just taking the existing technology I just mentioned, and combining it with the advanced power systems in the form of the compact generators, and the personal exosuit system used as a mounting instead of an external vehicle-like frame, this project is feasible. What else do you want?

Your invisible dragon implies that any of my claims are untrue, whereas all I'm seeing is that you're just not liking the answers I'm providing. In the end, even as one of the Council, you would have no power to overrule the creation of a prototype. I can be as naive and deluded about its usability as I want to be, but if it works, then it gets made and tested.

[Hapah]

Sounds like my sort of webcomic, will a Google search turn it up easy enough?

But, er, mostly I'm confused.

This conference call is dull as hell, so I can chat!

A rocket-powered suit with limited range that works everywhere is fine. An electricity-powered suit that works in a significant half of the encounterable environments, with unlimited range and various tradeoffs to achieve it, suddenly isn't.

People like the MK3 because it's flexible and quick in unpredictable combat situations. It's not ideal for information or recon-y work (which I think is what you're aiming your suit for), but it could do it in a pinch via quick fly-by's.

This suit of yours, by my (limited) understanding, is intended for recon-y work. It's got the same or similar target profile as a MK3, and might be sneakier than an MK3, but that's a bit like saying a hippo is sneaker than an elephant. What happens when it gets engaged while airborne, since it can move at only a fraction of the same speed? MK3 makes a break for it, yours tries to waddle away at turtle speed. You can't take it into combat, because (if I recall) it was designed to take about one hit. Yeah, it can't be jammed (which maybe the drones can get around?), but if something is sensitive enough to warrant a jamming signal you can bet they'll have eyes (and guns) on the lookout as well.

Whoops call is ending gotta wrap this up. Keep me honest if I misrepresented anything.

I didn't say "losing". Just using, in large numbers. We're not implanting QEC into every robosod we make, after all. So the cost isn't negligible.

Well sure, but you can't compare a hundred drones against one suit if they're gonna be covering the same thing. It'd be a hundred drones against a hundred suits, and I would imagine the drones are cheaper by an extremely large margin.

The MK3 is a shiv. Your prototype is a spoon. A drone/UAV/whatever is a key. How do you want to get out?

[Parisbre56]

I still don't see what the problem is. Both suits are multipurpose and cover different areas.

For example, Sean's can easily be used underwater, a Mk3 boils everything around it. So it would be perfect for spec ops requiring you to go underwater and then escape quickly. The suit may not be able to go supersonic like the MK3 but it should be able to achieve the same speed.

Worst that can happen is that it ends up being one of those rarely bought specialized suits in the armoury and that one battleship gets a crate of suits it will never use. Besides, this is a game and it's supposed to be fun. And that suit is definetly fun and plausible.

Plus, it's Sean's project, it's his character's choice to build it. That's his job. In the end his character is the one who has the final say in trying to build this.

[Devastator]

To be honest, Sean, it's like you've got an invisible dragon in your basement.  If someone asks to see it, you say it's invisible.  If someone asks to hear it moving around, you say it's silent.  If someone asks to throw chalk dust on it to see the outline, you say it's permeable to chalk dust.  At some point there's nothing in the basement at all.  If the design of something requires so many caveats, at some point you are designing nothing at all.

Wait, so which parts of the design are impossible, exactly? Ducted fan compact jetpacks work IRL, as demonstrated by the Martin Jetpack. Electric ducted fans are efficient enough for VTOL and high-speed flight, as demonstrated by Project Zero. A personal electric VTOL has been in development by NASA for a few years, but, eh. You know how NASA is with side projects these days. This is current-day technology, which the ER-verse is supposedly centuries ahead of. Even just taking the existing technology I just mentioned, and combining it with the advanced power systems in the form of the compact generators, and the personal exosuit system used as a mounting instead of an external vehicle-like frame, this project is feasible. What else do you want?

Your invisible dragon implies that any of my claims are untrue, whereas all I'm seeing is that you're just not liking the answers I'm providing. In the end, even as one of the Council, you would have no power to overrule the creation of a prototype. I can be as naive and deluded about its usability as I want to be, but if it works, then it gets made and tested.

That's kinda missing the point, Sean.  None of the claims have to be untrue, indeed, all of them are true.  The dragon makes no noise, cannot be seen, and is intangible.

What you are designing is like a Martin Jetpack, except it doesn't have a power source, (you've left it unspecified), doesn't have an engine, (you still need something to move the power from the power source into electricity, and then into the motors), and doesn't have a fusalage or frame, as I have no idea what it's actually made of, or what is holding it together.

It doesn't have any performance characteristics, other than being capable of flying everywhere forever.  It has no operational ceiling, flies at no defined speed, is not of a defined size, has no lifting capabilities, and masses nothing.

That's what I mean by invisible dragon.  I am unable to interact with the dragon, as I am unable to interact with your proposed suit.

[Parisbre56]

Kinda like how you know nothing about how the mk3 works? Or the laser rifle, the crystalline projector, the gauss rifle, synthflesh, Mk2s, ... Aren't all of those running on plausible but not fully explained future-tech? Because if you're asking for Sean to actually invent those things, figure out exactly how they work and give you the blueprints needed to build them, you are either overestimating his abilities or think he is an alien or from the future..