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[Parisbre56]

About carrying capacity: If you make it strong enough to lift a gauss cannon and move around while carrying it, it should  have quite good lifting capacity. If you don't, then it's quite inferior to the Mk3,  since you can't use heavy weapons with it.

[Sean Mirrsen]

I rather doubt it can lift a Gauss Cannon, at least with a pilot in it as well.

Yes, it is actually rather inferior to the rocket-powered MkIII. Not as fast, not as powerful. Its tradeoff is longevity - not a thing you'd use often in the HMRC, but something that I'd imagine would be quite handy for planetary forces of the ARM. Plus it's not as flashy, harder to spot, or target with a heat-seeker. Probably not much quieter though, those fans do make quite a racket.

I'd imagine it'd mostly be an aerial reconnaissance suit. Low-profile and high-endurance. Plus, amps and manipulators aren't terribly heavy anyway. And depending on how production goes, it might even be cheaper...

[swordsmith04]

When you say it's slower, do you mean slower than the average, no-roll cruising speed, or slower than the MkIII's higher speeds?

[Sean Mirrsen]

Slower than MkIII's maximum speed. Considerably. A MkIII has enough power to go supersonic if it needs to, it'll just burn most of its fuel doing that. Ducted fans aren't well-suited to flying fast. Even with a lifting-body wingsuit-like design that allows you to gain lift from flying forward (i.e. doing an impression of this concept of NASA's:)

- you'd still never reach anything resembling the speed of sound with the MkIII-A.

For regular getting around, the fans should be just as sufficient as rockets though. Flying forward (using the fans as forward thrust, and aerodynamics for lift), I think you could just about match the Mk3's regular non-breakneck cruising speed. Next to no capacity for going faster than that though - there is no expendable onboard resource to burn off. It goes as fast as it goes.

[syvarris]

Spoiler: Replies to everyone (click to show/hide)

And sure, avatars don't get the reroll upgrade, but they get a frigging +1 to every roll due to the avatar's intelligence helping them. That's way better, like an onboard homicidal AI helping them do everything in the most extreme way possible. Although with the new system the reroll will probably become much more important than it currently is.

They could still benefit from the reroll.  Maybe Miyamoto should buy a neurophotonic spinal column, so that he never gets anything aside from overshits.

The Avatar case be explained in two ways, both of them viable in my opinion. Either they have to force will upon their steed, as was already mentioned, and those nerve node connections are more than mere interfaces running along data - they somehow pass on the user's will (not as intent, but as the inexplicable power that allows us to resist mindfuck and do minor miracles), and that's why it is way more intensive and intricate than any other connection system (this is also supported by limited evidence of the ghostship mission where all participants were installed such nerve nodes).

There's something you're missing- in the ghostship mission, 9A, Jim didn't need any nerve nodes at all.  This implies that robobody's braincases are just as good as nerve nodes.  Further, nobody in that mission had their legs chopped off- which makes me wonder why Miyamoto lost his.  They're probably needed for the Avatar control system, but how are they used?  It's been stated before that synthflesh and humanflesh reject each other, so he can't have a direct connection, but why would nerves be connected to computers, considering we have superior replacements, like neurophotonics?

I will have to research this.

Or it could be that the body is purely better, more capable, more powerful in any ways imaginable, and just to control, to utilize its power more or less fully much more complex control system is required - sorta like in the Pacific Rim Jaegers, if I got their explanation correctly.

How is the system more complex, really?  Are nerve nodes somehow superior to brain cases?  How do the leg's nerves help improve the system?

remember that a human body can do stuff without the brain, through direct spinal cord signalling. In fact, a lot of things, like some reflexes, are controlled like that. Since braincases don't involve a spinal cord transplant (I think), those things have to be either simulated by the on board computer (which I can imagine isn't perfect) or aren't present (at least leading to, I suspect, slower reaction times in some situations). As such, there might be very good reasons to need a fleshy body human as a pilot (and also that crap about interacting with the Avatar entity, which might be easier/better with a full body for some reason).

This is a good point, and yes, braincases don't include a transplant of most of the spinal cord.  Problem is, we have superior alternatives to human nerves, like the neurophotonic spinal column.  Notably, you don't get that implant's bonus, so your system is somewhat inferior to a synthbody's system.

I only see two decent excuses for your body being left inside: Either you're right, and having more flesh lets you fight the Avatar better, or the people who designed the system wanted to leave as much of the original person intact, presumably for morale.  Maybe generals and war heroes don't like getting decapitated when they're given an AoW, so they left them most of their body intact.

In reality, shooting and killing a Mk.III with a heat seeking missile should be easy. We have fire and forget systems in RL that require minimal training to use and are still deadly. Getting IFF might be possible by outfitting our suits to send a signal identifying friendlies, and adding electronics so our smart ammo doesn't target them.

Also, missiles are 'ineffective', but can you imagine actually hitting a small and fast target with a laser? Aiming is hard, yo, and missiles work really well. Indeed expensive in tokens, mind you, but that's because ours is an army where people have to buy their own weapons and ammo (a really ridiculous concept when waging war, heh). Comparing resources to (kill) utility I think they might still measure up.

Yes, in reality.  However, this is a game where all conventional weapons require you to roll a die, and you only (and always) hit if you get four or above.  If you need to roll a die to fire a missile, then they aren't practical weapons, because you need the exact same results to hit with a laser.

Also, I said 'inefficient', not 'ineffective'.  I imagine they'd always be at least as effective as a laser, or moreso, but they will definitely cost more.  I could easily see a homing missile that can outmanuever an Mk.III costing 3 tokens, and with the added cost of the launcher you might be able to buy a Spektr for the same price- and a Spektr has infinite ammo.

Oh, and something we can add to the new Battlesuit: retractable wheels on the legs. PW has confirmed before those work good, give extra mobility in good terrain and aren't too expensive to add.

Good idea.  I need to make a list of these things...

Currently have: eyelids/eye cleaning method, riding handles on back, wheeled feet, moving cockpit latch, probably greatly cutting down on claymore number (is it necessary, if we already have the ESDS?), aaand crotch cam.  Anything I missed?

Also, I propose we name battlesuit 2,0 something like '(combat) hardsuit' or something. Pw has said bafore that battlesuits are more like hardsuits eitner way, so that might make communicating easier, and it's a descriptive name. 'Beetlesuit' gives me a different association, something with lots of legs and a hard shell.

v_v

But I like the name "beetlesuit".  It's similar to battlesuit, we got half the new armor from a type of beetle, and it sounds good.  "Battlesuit" isn't particularly descriptive either!  It also fits with "sharksuit", which you didn't object to, and would fit with "badgersuit" which is a name honoring Milno.

...What do other people think?  Boring kinda-descriptive name, or cool name?

Yes, it is actually rather inferior to the rocket-powered MkIII. Not as fast, not as powerful. Its tradeoff is longevity - not a thing you'd use often in the HMRC, but something that I'd imagine would be quite handy for planetary forces of the ARM. Plus it's not as flashy, harder to spot, or target with a heat-seeker. Probably not much quieter though, those fans do make quite a racket.

Where exactly do we use it?  I see two, maybe three roles for something like this.

1:Stealth.  It doesn't make an enormous heat signature, so a cheap stealth cloak could render it basically undetectable at a long range.  This would be wonderfully useful for sniping, or scouting.

2:Aerial guards.  It can stay in the air for as long as the pilot want to stay there, so aerial patrols are cheap and easy.  For this role, I think it would need the ability to carry a good amount of armor, so guards aren't just shot down from a distance. 

3:Cold aerial combat.  Basically, occupying the same role as combat Mk.IIIs, but specializing in attacking ground forces- and just shooting down enemy Mk.IIIs with heat-seekers.  I'd think this role needs excellent maneuverability OR armor capacity, to survive fire from ground forces.


Perhaps you could design the fans to be overchargeable, and then use a rechargeable capacitor to allow short bursts of overcharged speed and manueverability?  For standard cruising and hovering, you can just fly off the generator and slowly recharge the capacitor, but when you need to dodge, or get somewhere fast, you can drain the capacitor.

Unrelated: So basically, Blueraditite is alenium?  Wonder if we can make it rechargeable.  Failing that, wonder if we can make it into grenades.

[Parisbre56]

I don't know what alenium is, but it reminds me of tarydium.
A power source that is very volume efficient, but is cheaper to be mined than created.
http://liandri.beyondunreal.com/Tarydium

[Nikitian]

Alenium is basically elerium-115, if the memory serves me right.

On topic of the names:
What happened to the "FlavourfulName" DescriptiveName naming scheme? As in, why not call it "Beetlesuit" Heavy combat hardsuit 2.0 (or something like that)?
Not that I like "beetlesuit" that much (it gives me creeps, frankly ), but it fits well with the proposed armorsuit product line and seems to matter much to syv. And there is simply no other flavourful name suggested, as far as I know.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Where exactly do we use it?  I see two, maybe three roles for something like this.

1:Stealth.  It doesn't make an enormous heat signature, so a cheap stealth cloak could render it basically undetectable at a long range.  This would be wonderfully useful for sniping, or scouting.

Yeah, a long-range sniper or scout would be my first guess for its probable use. Package it with a Spektr for extreme-range X-Ray sniping, and you pretty much have a great guerrilla combatant.

2:Aerial guards.  It can stay in the air for as long as the pilot want to stay there, so aerial patrols are cheap and easy.  For this role, I think it would need the ability to carry a good amount of armor, so guards aren't just shot down from a distance.

Aerial patrols more likely, and that's why I said it should be armored to withstand a laser pulse. Hovering around in the same spot is pointless - you may as well have ground guards for that. In horizontal flight, acting as a patrol unit, the suit would be fairly hard to hit accurately with a projectile weapon, so giving it anti-laser defense primarily seems logical. We'll see about how it can be armored when we establish the lifting limits for this thing.

3:Cold aerial combat.  Basically, occupying the same role as combat Mk.IIIs, but specializing in attacking ground forces- and just shooting down enemy Mk.IIIs with heat-seekers.  I'd think this role needs excellent maneuverability OR armor capacity, to survive fire from ground forces.

This, I don't quite see. In a fight against MkIIIs, MkIII-As won't stand much of a chance - they don't have any combat advantages over the rocket-flyers, excepting maybe some aerodynamic maneuvering edge, the importance of which had disappeared along with classic aerial dogfights. And they likely won't be able to carry heat-seeking missiles of their own, though I guess it would allow any support forces to fire heat-seekers into the sky with impunity.


Its weapon- and armor-ability heavily depends on how much lifting capacity the universe will let the suit get away with.

Perhaps you could design the fans to be overchargeable, and then use a rechargeable capacitor to allow short bursts of overcharged speed and manueverability?  For standard cruising and hovering, you can just fly off the generator and slowly recharge the capacitor, but when you need to dodge, or get somewhere fast, you can drain the capacitor.

I think I'm pushing realism enough without having turbochargeable electric turbines. VTOL turbines of this kind are cutting-edge aerodynamics, normally operating just shy of the "violently tear itself apart" margin even with the best lightweight materials. Going faster is a very tricky business with turboprop engines, you start getting issues even when just the tips of the propellers are breaking the speed of sound. And if you have to dodge, you still have 1g of acceleration sideways, and 2g acceleration downwards at the very least.

Unrelated: So basically, Blueraditite is alenium?  Wonder if we can make it rechargeable.  Failing that, wonder if we can make it into grenades.

We could make compact power cells for plasma weapons out of it. Very fittingly for an alenium-alike, I must add.

[Radio Controlled]

Them battlesuits:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

As Nik proposed, let’s look at what a battlesuit is supposed to actually do as a start. (Note that this is mostly from the perspective of an army, and less player needs)

Its two main roles seem to be walking tank, and supporting infantry or providing them with an armored spearhead to assault behind (see: Gilgamesh often leading a charge, covering peeps behind his metal ass). Let’s look at these separately.


First, tank role. A battlesuit can be armored decently enough, while being able to pack sufficient firepower. It’s mobile enough normally, though perhaps not ‘fast’ enough (I wonder what its top speed is).
However, as we have shown before rather conclusively, an actual vehicle always wins out when it comes to providing an armored stable platform with a big gun. So, I don't know if we should optimise a new suit for a role like this. Note that vehicles could also provide other support functions, such as a converted apc that has an automatic medical suite inside with precise robot arms to do surgery and such.

What could a legged platform do a vehicle can’t? Well, while tracks are often a better solution I suspect, there might be a few situations where legs are better (note, not stairs and such for now, since a battlesuit is often too big for often needing this). Very rough terrain like a bombed out city comes to mind, but then this is offset by soft terrain favoring racks.

Secondly, melee capabilities, which might be the most important reason to use legs at this size. However, I do doubt how much melee an ER battlefield should see (if we can have 3m tall mechs that can close in quickly to hit in melee, I think we can have vehicle turrets that can turn 180°, aim and fire in a second, making melee… difficult). And how many legs would be best? Well, while 4/6/8 have some advantages, I think they aren’t optimal, because in the areas where they shine compared to two (stability, robustness against leg damage due to redundancy, lower frame) they are still inferior to vehicles (note that tracks/wheels can be hidden on the inside of the tank, they don’t have to be as exposed as they are in RL ones (a bit like in a land raider) except for the mentioned rough terrain handling. Two legs, on the other hand, are best for melee fighting I suspect.

And finally, why have arms? They are inferior for shooting a gun stably compared to a turret, but can more easily swap weapons. How often would a battlesuit need to do that though? Melee is helped by arms of course.

Not sure what to do with pw's 'ban' on regular vehicles though, because it's kinda silly really. But maybe saying they're for our npc army will get us around that.



On the other hand, a battlesuit is often stated to be used as an infantry support unit, or for spearheading infantry actions (aka being well armored while carrying decent offensive power). It is rather flexible in this role: it can be focused on armor and a heavy gun, or mobility and melee, or provide support functions (one can still do stuff besides shooting crap with a battlesuit, and switch roles more easily).
However, for this it has one big disadvantage: it is simply too big. An infantry support platform, that cannot go where the infantry needs to go, isn't doing its job.

So, we need a range of smaller things to fill this role, making sure they can go where infantry can. Again, vehicles could work, but for this the mobility problem is more profound (eg navigating stairs). So legged might be better here. How many? Well, the previous analysis mostly stands, so multi legged might be best. For example, consider something like this (for rough shape, remove the arms if needed):

If we move the wheels to the underside of the belly instead of the feet, it could have the mobility and speed of a vehicles, and ‘deploy’ the legs when needed (maybe even have vertical capabilities). Two legs however, might again be best for melee purposes, though this isn’t a given depending on the design.

Then, weapons can either be put on the main body or on a turret on the top, providing better stability than arms. This thing could fill several roles: armor it and give it a gun, and it can give fire support or act as spearhead. Or add long retractable arms with good control for doing things like battlefield medicine or repairs (it could carry a suite of tools for this). Of course, a ‘tail’ like limb can be added, but suspect that it would be more for support role (eg extra limb for surgery), and less weapon mounting. A design like this could also fill various other support roles (eg if automanip shields work, one could add one of these) depending on payload.

Next to this, small 'battlesuits' like in Syv’s design (but upgraded with our new tech) might still be needed, due to greater versatility (which I suspect is more important on the infantry level) and melee potential.

[Sean Mirrsen]

I would approve of tachikombattlesuits.

[Nikitian]

I like your analysis, sir. In-depth reply would take some time yet, but I got a few ideas for basic suit improvements from your work as well.

[Radio Controlled]

Any opinions on this? I do agree it pushes realism a bit, but the current developments in all-electric VTOL aircraft look pretty good. I.e.:

Given sufficiently large fans, I could see the principle work. But then the question remains whether it'd be a good idea to actually use it. How often do we need long lived aerial units? And if we do, why not a drone instead of a suit? In fact, wouldn't a drone be better anyway?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

But with a gun.
wouldn't this work much better? Also, wouldn' the fans need to be either ridiculously big (easy target, unwieldly) or rotate stupidly fast (dangerous, unstable for shooting) in order to generate the thrust for lifting a man and his suit and any armor and weapons?

They could still benefit from the reroll.  Maybe Miyamoto should buy a neurophotonic spinal column, so that he never gets anything aside from overshits.

Considered it. Too few gain for too many tokens was my conclusion.

This is a good point, and yes, braincases don't include a transplant of most of the spinal cord.  Problem is, we have superior alternatives to human nerves, like the neurophotonic spinal column. 

Even if the nerves are better, that doesn't mean you can accurately mimic their connections. Though apparently a synthbody (with neuro spine) can, so that point might be moot.

Notably, you don't get that implant's bonus, so your system is somewhat inferior to a synthbody's system.

Might be a balance issue. Either way, I'd prefer a general +1 (no more 1's) over a small decrease in chance to getting a one, and instead something better.

I only see two decent excuses for your body being left inside: Either you're right, and having more flesh lets you fight the Avatar better, or the people who designed the system wanted to leave as much of the original person intact, presumably for morale.  Maybe generals and war heroes don't like getting decapitated when they're given an AoW, so they left them most of their body intact.

I suspect the first as well. Spess magicks man.

Yes, in reality.  However, this is a game where all conventional weapons require you to roll a die, and you only (and always) hit if you get four or above.  If you need to roll a die to fire a missile, then they aren't practical weapons, because you need the exact same results to hit with a laser.

Was talking more IC perspective though. And perhaps if we make an agreement that 'smart ammo' gives a bonus to rolls it can still work out.

Also, I said 'inefficient', not 'ineffective'.  I imagine they'd always be at least as effective as a laser, or moreso, but they will definitely cost more.  I could easily see a homing missile that can outmanuever an Mk.III costing 3 tokens, and with the added cost of the launcher you might be able to buy a Spektr for the same price- and a Spektr has infinite ammo.

Typo, you're right, meant inefficient. Again, that difficult schism between arming an army, and providing equipment they have to buy themselves for space mercenaries.

But I like the name "beetlesuit".  It's similar to battlesuit, we got half the new armor from a type of beetle, and it sounds good.  "Battlesuit" isn't particularly descriptive either!  It also fits with "sharksuit", which you didn't object to, and would fit with "badgersuit" which is a name honoring Milno.

...What do other people think?  Boring kinda-descriptive name, or cool name?

Didn't object to sharksuit cause I can't come up with any better. Also, hey, not fair, presenting the options like that! Ya brigand.

Package it with a Spektr for extreme-range X-Ray sniping, and you pretty much have a great guerrilla combatant.

Hit and run =/=guerrilla. Just saying.

[Devastator]

Package it with a Spektr for extreme-range X-Ray sniping, and you pretty much have a great guerrilla combatant.

Isn't the atmosphere fairly opaque to x-rays, anyway?

[Nikitian]

Hey Sean, may I suggest something that might help your suit? Try making it cheaper, and by that I mean moderately to significantly cheaper. Use new exoskeletons, use new cheaper base suit (maybe even just a MCP-I with or without a medical system, so as to shear off as many tokens as possible and not get into MCP-II hassle). Maybe even forego or downgrade the exoskeleton (+2/3 instead of full +1 might work just as well for many characters, by the way). Maybe something else as well.

At least at the moment you are in an opportune moment for a Mk+ 2.5, I believe, with Mk+ I already finished and out (MCP-I), Mk+ II mostly finished (MCP-II) and already cheaper than the old model, and Mk+ III existing only in concepts and plans. Later things should sort out, and maybe your suit would become 'specialist equipment' like most of the hidden armory items of the old, but at the moment there might be some real demand for it if you manage to keep it cheap - say, about 9-10 tokens or so, or even less.

[Sean Mirrsen]

I could pretty much make it cheap, yeah. The initial idea for the MACS called for the system being used sans any powered exoskeleton, if you recall, and the Aero module was the only torso-mounted one lightweight enough to be used like that. It has almost no heavy parts.

I'll think about it.
Assuming the Council lets the idea through in any shape or form in the first place.