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[syvarris]

I imagine it's primarily out of habit, as the UWM has fought spacefaring enemies in the past.  In particular, the Altered used fleshships which didn't even use the jump points- they went the slow way.  I think the Haebi did/do(?) a similar thing, except with entire planets.  That justifies not using FTL chokepoints, because anything that could conceivably challenge the fleet wouldn't use the chokepoint.

Another argument is laziness.  Having the ships sit around a chokepoint means that it's impossible to do something planetside without moving the whole ship from it's post.  They might not want to use automated defenses around the jump point for fear of getting a false positive when civvie ships come through.  Yet another argument is that it's harder to fight the enemy if you're parked next to the jump point- they'll be heading towards Hephaestus at a significant fraction of c, and you'll be parked and need to accelerate.  That makes it harder to shoot and hit, compared to if they were heading towards you.

((I think the problem with a CON weapon that can cheaply defeat battlesuits is that we'll start seeing a lot more battlesuits that need to be defeated. Well, a "problem".

I had a rather different idea in mind for a CON weapon of a similar purpose, but I guess I need to get back into this game to really get it to work.))

You mean, the issue with a anti-battlesuit CON weapon is the fact that it would be too effective?  That's certainly an argument, although it doesn't really apply to players.  We have cheap amps and manipulators that really render battlesuits useless, not to mention all the high-end CON weapons our people like to tote around.  I'm pretty sure Paris roasted a few battlesuits with the red beam of his rainbow cannon, during the Heph defense.

Really, the weapon is more for sods.  They're gonna need some method of dealing with battlesuits, and as I said before it's pretty much stupid to give them shoulder-fired weapons, due to the cost.  Giving them PSLs is the logical idea, but then I have issues with who to give it to.  If you give it to a generic footsoldier in the group, he's a priority target and easy to remove, since he has a universally effective weapon which is large and obvious.  If you give it to the heavily armored soldier, you're putting way too many eggs in one heavily armored basket.

If that idea doesn't work, I'll probably just make another crystal rifle, between the Testament and PSL.  Probably make it use 6x the shard fluid, which would allow for 30 round one token mags, and burst fire high enough to threaten a BS.  Maybe call it the "Doctrine" HMG.


Anyway, if you don't mind, I'd like to hear what your idea for a different anti-BS CON weapon would be.  Maybe it could give me more ideas, or refine them or something.

[Sean Mirrsen]

You mean, the issue with a anti-battlesuit CON weapon is the fact that it would be too effective?  That's certainly an argument, although it doesn't really apply to players.  We have cheap amps and manipulators that really render battlesuits useless, not to mention all the high-end CON weapons our people like to tote around.  I'm pretty sure Paris roasted a few battlesuits with the red beam of his rainbow cannon, during the Heph defense.

Really, the weapon is more for sods.  They're gonna need some method of dealing with battlesuits, and as I said before it's pretty much stupid to give them shoulder-fired weapons, due to the cost.  Giving them PSLs is the logical idea, but then I have issues with who to give it to.  If you give it to a generic footsoldier in the group, he's a priority target and easy to remove, since he has a universally effective weapon which is large and obvious.  If you give it to the heavily armored soldier, you're putting way too many eggs in one heavily armored basket.

If that idea doesn't work, I'll probably just make another crystal rifle, between the Testament and PSL.  Probably make it use 6x the shard fluid, which would allow for 30 round one token mags, and burst fire high enough to threaten a BS.  Maybe call it the "Doctrine" HMG.

Eh, the problem isn't so much that it's too effective, it's that it's too readily available, so to speak. If a battlesuit can be cheaply and relatively reliably (amps and manips are anything but reliable, let alone safe) taken out by a weapon that becomes standard, it stands to reason we'll start seeing a much higher percentage of battlesuits on the field, not to mention some much nastier things that can't be taken out like that, just to keep the game challenging. It's a meta view of the issue though, not an actual "problem", which is why I put it in quotation marks.

Anyway, if you don't mind, I'd like to hear what your idea for a different anti-BS CON weapon would be.  Maybe it could give me more ideas, or refine them or something.

Well, if you want an idea for an anti-battlesuit weapon I have, look no further than my hammerhead warheads. Each hammerhead is some seven to eight token (if DIY'd, purpose-built mass-produced ones likely cheaper), fairly reliable, and very destructive, with very little danger to the shooter unless used at very close range, and the resulting munitions are compact enough to make the launcher not be needlessly bulky. If you don't remember what they are, they were made by Anton during Simus's little "Hephaestus entry test", and are regular old rocket propelled grenades with a kinamp sandwich warhead, either plain or with tungsten/titanium or depleted uranium penetrators. Delivered energy is in the "small nuke" range, focused away from the shooter in the direction the warhead is pointing when it hits.

The actual idea I have is rather more esoteric, and I have no idea whether or not it will even work, so Anton is using his "extra privileges" to perform some personal research in that direction before announcing anything. It is basically a cutting beam. But not a laser. Take that as you will.

[Parisbre56]

I'm pretty sure Paris roasted a few battlesuits with the red beam of his rainbow cannon, during the Heph defense.

Nope. Just slowed them down a bit and prevented them from attacking. Then again, they were hit with a swerp intrnded to kill many soldiers, so a directed beam that stayed on target might be enough to kill one.

I suggest you look into conventional weapons and weak points in the battle suit. Whst does the uwm use? For example, there must be gaps in the armour where wires go through it or where the plates join together. Or maybe look for how they are constructed and look for anything you can do to make it fall apart. Or ways to remotely trigger the claymores or cause the escape system to activate, like a concentrated microwave pulse somewhere.

[syvarris]

@Sean

Ahh, I see what you mean.  Yes, that's an issue, although it's a funny issue.  It can basically be applied to every weapon, therefore justifying not making any.  Still, it's not 100% true, and designing weapons is fun.

I disagree with you that Space Magic is unreliable and unsafe.  If the needle launcher that I described in the Heph thread worked as I intended, you'd still need to roll four or higher on a CON roll to kill a BS.  A three or less probably wouldn't have done anything.  The same is true for a microwave SM device, which would also be much cheaper.

As far as a SM device being unsafe, it's only unsafe if the user is very unskilled, very overskilled, or trying something very stupid.  Those are border cases, and are balanced IMO by the fact that SM can do more damage to the enemy than guns, and are more versatile.


Lastly, I'm aware of the hammerhead.  Along with the Automanip launcher I designed in that same competition, it's what I was talking about when I mentioned shoulder-fired weapons.  As I said there, my main issue is that if you're going to fire it even twice, a PSL is cheaper AND more effective.


@Paris

Ah, okay then.  I just remembered battlesuit armor being partially melted.  I guess I got the scale of the damage wrong.

Anyway, I already have researched what a Battlesuit's weaknesses are.  Primarily, it's the joints, and those are pretty much destroyable with any kinetic weapon that we use.  There's no real chinks in the armor, although it's thickest in the front, and probably thinnest around the shoulders/hips.  That doesn't really help, because a weapon that's useless if the battlesuit's facing you isn't that useful.

The microwave idea is interesting though.  I doubt you could affect the internals, but maybe you could blind it?  Maybe a specific setting on an overcharged Raduga would work?

The UWM uses PSLs, and plasma projectors.  Which means PSLs, because plasma projectors are far too inefficient for my taste, and not much more effective.

[Parisbre56]

What if you delivered a microwave pulse to the capacitor to lower its capacity, thus drainjng the suit of power? Battlesuits use only one capacitor, so any damage to it breaks the battle suit. Same with its generator. Not sure if microwaves are the way to go though. Maybe x~rays are better.

[syvarris]

Why would the capacitor be outside the armor?  That would be a major design flaw.  If they're internal, then microwave/x-ray won't reach them, because the armor protects against them.  Sean's lasers proved that.

Also, are you sure the BS only uses one?  Where did you hear that?

[PyroDesu]

Also, Syv, do you forget the Sibilus? It's capable of getting through battlesuits. It can either sandpaper through with multiple bursts or crack through layers with overcharged shots. I think some of the Brisant loads can also break through battlesuit plate, and even if they don't, I can always make one that does (something tells me a HESH shell would hurt armor that's designed like the battlesuit's - metal it spalls, but something that acts more like a ceramic?).

Oh, and by the way: The Brisant costs all of 3 tokens, can very easily be modified to be an attachment weapon (shorten it while increasing power through the coils, get rid of the stock (and maybe the pistol grip), and make it either muzzle-loading (which it can anyways) or have the barrel slide forward instead of break down, and provide attachment rails - all fairly minor and could probably even be done to a Brisant without need for a made attachment), and can airburst with the detonator override (recall in Simus' first mission that she brought down the front of an enemy-held building with it then used an airburst frag to kill the enemies that lived through the collapse). And the grenades I could probably ask to be even cheaper, considering a kilo of the explosive they use is only a couple of tokens.

[syvarris]

Good point about the Brisant.  I still like the idea of linking the ammunition, but having a general grenade launcher attachment would be a good idea.

As for the Sibilus, I think you're missing what I'm trying to get.  Even a gauss rifle is capable of sandpapering a battlesuit down with overcharged shots, if you have enough time and ammunition.  The Sibilus does better, since it can actually crack a BS within a few seconds, but it's still far below "effective".  Assuming PW means "three" when he says "three", it takes nine rounds of burst fire to crack a single layer, which means minimum forty five rounds to crack all five. (source)  That would take fifteen seconds of sustained, perfectly aimed fire to actually breach to the cockpit.  Since the final two layers of armor trade laser resistance for extra kinetic resistance, they probably take more shots, not to mention the fact that just cracking the armor doesn't actually remove it.

Also, I highly doubt anything that the Brisant can fit in the barrel is going to do significant damage to a Battlesuit.  The HGC's round doesn't even breach the second layer of armor, on a direct hit.  The nuclear variant doesn't do much better, and also has the side effect of killing you if you're anywhere nearby.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Also, I highly doubt anything that the Brisant can fit in the barrel is going to do significant damage to a Battlesuit.  The HGC's round doesn't even breach the second layer of armor, on a direct hit.  The nuclear variant doesn't do much better, and also has the side effect of killing you if you're anywhere nearby.

Well... there's always hammerheads... Of course they're terribly expensive, but perhaps more time spent on research could make them more cost-effective?

[Parisbre56]

@syvarris: Mostly because I have been using the Rainbow Cannon, thus I've become very intimate with the battlesuit's electrical systems. For example, did you know each limb is powered by a single main electrical cable, thus if you damage that cable, the entire limb is useless?

Anyway, the main generator was gotten by this post, where I was searching for ways to give the BS some extra juice. Also notable that the BS has a second internal battery that is used only for the ESDS, probably so that overloading the ESDS doesn't destroy the BS.

The main capacitor was mentioned sometime I fired the Rainbow Cannon, don't remember exactly when.

[syvarris]

@Sean

"Hammerhead" sub-nuclear offensive warhead
Form-factor: 65x980mm spin-stabilized missile

The Brisant is essentially the same as the standard Gauss Rifle, however the caliber has been increased to 50mm and the magnetic coils dialed back to one-quarter the original strength.

Also, I highly doubt anything that the Brisant can fit in the barrel is going to do significant damage to a Battlesuit.

Technically, I might be wrong.  You could probably make an automanip that would fit in the barely, and then intentionally overload it to take out a BS.  That still doesn't solve the cost issue.

@Paris

Okay then.  I'll check if there's any shenanigans we can do with the power supply stuff.  Thank you!

[Parisbre56]

Oh, sorry, guess my wording was bad. I meant that I know for certain that there is only one generator. I didn't mean I knew for certain that the capacitor is able to be influenced by outside things. I just said that if it is, then that is a very potent vulnerability to exploit.

Unrelated, you could see if the maintenance panel BSs have counts as a vulnerability, if it has less armour than the rest of it.

[Toaster]

What about the Willis MBL?  Wasn't it designed to be able to damage a battlesuit?  Sure, the only one in existence was blasted to tiny bits by the Sword's main guns, but still...

[syvarris]

I'm not really sure what the intended role of the MBL was, but it wasn't a great anti-BS weapon.  It was only really capable of severing limbs, and even then the bolas could be torn off by a quick pilot.  Disabling BS limbs isn't particularly difficult, really, so it's not a good option.

[Radio Controlled]

A regular gauss rifle with grav shells can also do the trick, I seem to remember. Though those do sound very expensive, and I'm not sure what the price for a single one is.

it's pretty much stupid to give them shoulder-fired weapons, due to the cost.

A simple shoulder-fired rocket launcher (like the one we gave to our sods on Hep defense) loaded with AP (shaped charge?) seemed pretty effective though, and not too costly (but that was RU, it might be different for tokens).

We have cheap amps and manipulators that really render battlesuits useless

Note that with the new roll system, this might not hold true any longer except for very skilled users.

Anyway, if you don't mind, I'd like to hear what your idea for a different anti-BS CON weapon would be.  Maybe it could give me more ideas, or refine them or something.

Create sharkmist nanobots that're really good at eating things but can't procreate. Have them activate when they don't recieve a (radio)signal (or another system, just train of thought here) which is created from a weak short ranged source in the weapon. Put it into modified chem thrower, maybe with carrier matrix. Spray stream of bots at things and watch them dissolve before your very eyes!

And the grenades I could probably ask to be even cheaper, considering a kilo of the explosive they use is only a couple of tokens.

Yeaaaah, the gun was allowed to be cheap because the cost of the shells would balance that. Not sure you could just decrease their cost and keep it a balanced item, without sacrificing something else.