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[Ancalagon_TB]

See how it says "fracturing the bone"?
That is the problem, bones have waaay too many pain receptors right now.
You need to go to your raw folder and change tissue_template_default to make bone have less pain receptors, I have it on 17.

As soon as I read "bones have pain receptors" I knew something was wrong. All receptors of any kind are found in the flesh, most in the skin. While a raws edit could solve these problems (there should really be a "better raws" mod, maybe I should make one), it would be much better if it was fixed by default.

Erm... While the "minerally" part of bones have no pain receptors per say, they are surrounded with tissue that *does*, called the Periosteum.  When the fracture damages this layer of tissue, severe pain follows.  Having the game put pain receptors inside the bone is an acceptable approximation of reality IMO.  There may be too many, but there should be some. 

[Ancalagon_TB]

Semimegabeasts are nonthreatening, this ain't nothing new. They have been weak since 0.31 at least. You want a challenge ? Bronze colossus, hydra, dragon, or a good forgotten beast.

After the cyclops I reloaded and didn't send in my military. The cyclops did quite a number on my civilians. They can be quite dangerous in an early fort but not after 7 years. I have 40 legendary swordsdorfs (and 10 lazy-ass markdorfs who only train a couple of hours when they feel like it).

A giantess or cyclops could bring some family or friends later in the game. That would make the fight more interesting. Or maybe they could use a door or table as shield and a log as club...   

I think the main problem is that the balance probably works well for adventure mode but is too easy for fortress mode. Some enemy types are too rare. I've never seen a bronze colossus, hydra, roc or dragon! Never had a vampire in my fort either. My fort size is 82+4 kids with 3.5 million in wealth so the FUN stuff should trigger.

Make sure you have more than 100 dwarves, that seems to be an important treshold for sieges.

[Bigheaded]

Make sure you have more than 100 dwarves, that seems to be an important treshold for sieges.

It's 80 (that includes children), just had a full goblin assault at 81 pop. Although no mounts.


Also, i tried making a slightly more evil region to help the goblins through, and it appears to have worked, i've had the first thieves i've seen in a long time turn up within a year.
I'm pretty sure i'll be getting attacked soon.


Idea is, is that in a non savage world, the animals don't kill half the siege before it gets to you, i've seen 3 worlds now where an elephant has taken out a dragon (i was trying to get the right sort of world and i decided to check legends to see how many goblins were in the legends and noticed all these dead dragons).

I think the chances of goblins surviving walking past badgers is pretty decent. Although my bets probably on the badgers... especially if honey is involved.

[Urist Tilaturist]

Erm... While the "minerally" part of bones have no pain receptors per say, they are surrounded with tissue that *does*, called the Periosteum.  When the fracture damages this layer of tissue, severe pain follows.  Having the game put pain receptors inside the bone is an acceptable approximation of reality IMO.  There may be too many, but there should be some.

I would consider that tissue to fall within the remit of "flesh" myself, but I understand that having receptors in the bones represents that. The numbers must still be reduced to stop monsters fainting as described earlier.

[Col_Jessep]

Year 8, 11th Opal. 40 Legendary swordsdwarf are honing their skills to perfection. 10 nearly useless crossbowdwarfs derp around in the archery and all but 6 civilians (4 kids) have been trained in armor and shield use and are at least great or master sworddwarfs.

The Cyclops Ata has come!
A giant humanoid monster with a single eye set in its forehead.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I guess we all know how this went for the giant monster... =3
Didn't bother to alarm the civies since the clever monster bee-lined it to my veteran swordsdorf squad.

[Urist Tilaturist]

I thought of a more sensible fix for the monsters fainting from pain. When in combat, creatures should experience an adrenaline rush which greatly reduces pain from injuries. This means that creatures will not stupidly faint and be killed by a broken toe, but they will be incapacitated after the fight is over. This would more accurately represent combat injuries and make monsters more threatening.

[Sergarr]

The even more sensible solution would be to nerf the melee damage so that not every single attack pierces to the bone. Lowering the weapon penetration values by a factor of 100 should do that nicely.

[Urist Tilaturist]

I agree that too many attacks break bones in the first place, but an animal should not faint from a single broken bone in an extremity anyway. Swords in particular should not break bones very often at all, mostly just cutting the flesh.

[Button]

One feature of DF2014 which is reducing my Fun is forgotten beasts fighting in the caverns - with the wildlife and with each other. It used to be that if you ignored FBs they'd pile up, so you had an incentive to try to take them out quickly. Now they just kill each other - and with all their syndromes, it's too often fatal to both beasts. Occasionally even normal wildlife will take them out - my dining room has a bunch of engravings of the (wild) jabberer Tattooedwealthy laughing as Esnust the Abyssal Urn makes a plaintive gesture. While I agree that that's pretty awesome, rushing to get your military trained and your cavern defenses up because if you don't hurry, all the Forgotten Beasts will be dead is like... the opposite of Dwarf Fortress.

[Col_Jessep]

I think the semi-megabeasts are just giant babies. Here, a giant rattlesnake was tip-toeing around my main entrance and I send a squad:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

She lasted longer than the megabeasts. And that strike to the teeth was brutal, teeth flying everywhere:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Tearing apart the muscle and the spleen! Jeez, getting a pickaxe jammed into your spleen, I guess that's really a good reason to give in to pain. 

PS. I agree with the forgotten beasts, Button.

[Sergarr]

I agree that too many attacks break bones in the first place, but an animal should not faint from a single broken bone in an extremity anyway. Swords in particular should not break bones very often at all, mostly just cutting the flesh.

That happens because cutting weapons have ridiculous penetration values, vastly exceeding the comparative thickness of body layers.

I've just calculated it and the average swordsman with a steel sword has enough force behind his slash to cut the leg's bones ten times over (assuming he cuts through the skin and muscle beforehand). I'm preeeeetty sure that's not how it is in real life.

(though I'm not sure if my calcs are actually correct...)

[Naryar]

One feature of DF2014 which is reducing my Fun is forgotten beasts fighting in the caverns - with the wildlife and with each other. It used to be that if you ignored FBs they'd pile up, so you had an incentive to try to take them out quickly. Now they just kill each other - and with all their syndromes, it's too often fatal to both beasts. Occasionally even normal wildlife will take them out - my dining room has a bunch of engravings of the (wild) jabberer Tattooedwealthy laughing as Esnust the Abyssal Urn makes a plaintive gesture. While I agree that that's pretty awesome, rushing to get your military trained and your cavern defenses up because if you don't hurry, all the Forgotten Beasts will be dead is like... the opposite of Dwarf Fortress.

What fun reduction ? You are not simply thinking dwarven enough.

Wall off the caverns, use cagetraps+cave-in traps to catch FB's and everything in the caverns.

Then build an arena and MAKE THEM FIGHT EACH OTHER for your dwarves's viewing pleasure. And yours as well, of course.

Cavern Wars!

Also yes, jabberers are bad-ass and definitely can kill some FB's.

[BoredVirulence]

I agree that too many attacks break bones in the first place, but an animal should not faint from a single broken bone in an extremity anyway. Swords in particular should not break bones very often at all, mostly just cutting the flesh.

That happens because cutting weapons have ridiculous penetration values, vastly exceeding the comparative thickness of body layers.

I've just calculated it and the average swordsman with a steel sword has enough force behind his slash to cut the leg's bones ten times over (assuming he cuts through the skin and muscle beforehand). I'm preeeeetty sure that's not how it is in real life.

(though I'm not sure if my calcs are actually correct...)

Swords should nearly always break someones bones. Even a dull sword will often fracture the bones underneath if there is no protective gear. A sharpened sword can cleave through a mans torso, not to mention what it would do to the femur...

The numbers may be off (and indeed, a single slash should not cleave through 10 femurs), but a sharpened sword against anything unarmored is pretty much a 1 hit kill in real life.

[Sergarr]

Okay I've found a little mistake here. It's not 10 times over. It's "just" three times. And that's just a dull sword, with a masterwork weapon, you can cleave through a bone six times bigger than a human arm's one in one slash.

The penetration values on weapons are so big that a sword sword can (if wielded by somebody very strong and huge) cut off an elephant's leg in one slash. I'm pretty sure that's physically impossible.

In fact, if you mod the short sword to have x100 velocity that it has, you can easily sever elephant's legs. That's probably kinda unrealistic right here.

I'm pretty sure the penetration values should be equal to weapon's size or lesser than that, since that's what the game uses for body part attacks. For a short sword, that would mean the difference between 4000 penetration and 300 penetration. The thickness of an elephant's leg is about 400, so that should help alleviate that problem.


In general, DF's physics are so crude the only reason why nobody has figured them out is because all these values are hidden deeply inside the code. But now, armed with formulas and calculators, we should make things right.

[BoredVirulence]

Okay I've found a little mistake here. It's not 10 times over. It's "just" three times. And that's just a dull sword, with a masterwork weapon, you can cleave through a bone six times bigger than a human arm's one in one slash.

The penetration values on weapons are so big that a sword sword can (if wielded by somebody very strong and huge) cut off an elephant's leg in one slash. I'm pretty sure that's physically impossible.

Considering dwarf fortress has no such thing as a dull sword, I'm going to assume we mean a low quality sword. A sharpened, but otherwise ordinary, sword should be able to cut through at least 2 human femurs, which is the strongest bone in your body. 3 could very well be possible, but I certainly won't claim it. The humerus isn't a particularly strong bone, so I could imagine cutting through 6 in one swing (not really the same thing as making one giant super bone), although this could too be implausible.

Bone is a peculiar thing, it doesn't cut very well, and its really just the blunt force on a small area that causes very specific breaks, so as we start adding, things behave much more differently and become difficult to predict. The more outlandish scenarios are pretty hard to predict.

However I believe that the right man, with a large two handed sword, could cut through an elephants leg in a single swing. Keep in mind that the macuahuitl could cut through a horses torso. It wasn't really a single swing, there would be sawing action, but for a wooden club with bits of glass on the side, that's impressive. A great sword has a much better cutting edge, and likely even more momentum than the macuahuitl, so it may be up to the task. I assume your calculations were for a dwarven short sword, and that certainly couldn't do the job.

So I'll agree, the numbers are off. But I honestly think some people here have unrealistic beliefs on the limitations of these weapons. That's understandable, we don't usually slice each other up anymore, but think about the forces involved. If a normal sword (granted not a short sword) can cut through two pigs torso's (closest human analog) in a single swing, it has the potential to do some damage. Even without its cutting edge, the sheer momentum involved in a metal club with a small contact area is certainly going to break some bones.