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[Niddhoger]

I want to say it was in FFXI.  There was an item with fire resistance made of asbestos.  Low level item, played for laughs.  I believe I saw one in another game.. maybe one of the Indie ones bought off Steam.  In both cases it was a joke "har har, asbestos as Fire resistance gear!"

As far as your statement about "educated" people of the 12/13th centuries being more familiar with asbestos? Well none of them (or the common folk who cleaned asbestos towels in fire before them) are here playing Dwarf Fortress.  We post-industrials are the ones playing Dwarf Fortress, and thus its our opinions that matter in regards to the game and its setting.

About the name change.... As I mentioned before "Asbestos" is NOT something we associate with fantasy settings, and for most people seeing it in the game would be rather off-putting.  Someone could mine through their Chyrsolite, and then find they can spin the fibers into something called "Dwarven Wool" at a strand extractor.  They wouldn't think "Whats asbestos doing here?" They'd think "Oh hey, rock-cloth THAT'S DWARFY!" I'm assuming the average person isn't the least bit aware that asbestos is a mineral to be mined, and instead assumes its one of those "evil" synthetic materials we made in defiance of nature (since ofc natural items are more healthy! >.>)  The main point of changing the name would be a convenient way to ignore the lung cancer side of this.  ASBESTOS would kill our dwarves decades early.  DWARVEN WOOL is just a normal part of dwarven culture- where they tame the very rocks themselves and mold them into clothing that bewilders the elves. 

[Reelya]

"Asbestos" is NOT something we associate with fantasy settings, and for most people seeing it in the game would be rather off-putting.

I recall that the same argument was made against adding same-sex relationships. They went into vanilla though, so that reasoning isn't sufficient to not add something. Plus, which fantasy setting is microcline associated with? If you're going to use an argument it needs to hold as a general case, otherwise it's a cherry picked argument and not valid.

I'm assuming the average person isn't the least bit aware that asbestos is a mineral to be mined

Really? The average member of the public is more aware of asbestos mining than virtually any other mineral in Dwarf Fortress, because of the massive litigation related to miner's dying of exposure to it and all the lawsuits. How many news articles on microcline have YOU seen? We better get rid of microcline, since "the average person isn't the least bit aware that microcline is a mineral to be mined" which is a TRUE statement, unlike the asbestos version, which is patently false.

[SixOfSpades]

The dates seem off, but it was definitely Mongols, not Ming.

Yes, my bad. (Don't listen to what I say, listen to what I mean. )

We post-industrials are the ones playing Dwarf Fortress, and thus its our opinions that matter in regards to the game and its setting. . . . "Asbestos" is NOT something we associate with fantasy settings, and for most people seeing it in the game would be rather off-putting. . . . I'm assuming the average person isn't the least bit aware that asbestos is a mineral to be mined . . .

In a game that includes traditional fantasy creatures like elves, trolls, minotaurs, zombies, etc., naturally popular opinion would have a good deal of sway over certain aspects. Players might debate over whether dragons should have four walking legs or only two, in fact there could be heated debates on the topic. If the game pulls a Twilight and says, "Hey, the in-game vampires have hardly anything in common with traditional vampires, but I'm still gonna call them vampires, okay?" then players are going to take issue with that. And that's a problem, because in a fantasy game, the fantasy elements should try to match the audience's common fantasies.

But asbestos is not a fantasy element, it's a real mineral. Even when it's made into a fuzzy blanket and thrown onto a fire, it's still a cold, hard fact. All the opinion in the world is never going to change a fact. You cannot vote its carcinogenic properties out of existence. Yes, nerfing asbestos into "dwarven wool" would be a bit more dwarfy, and open the door to magical properties like being resistant to dragonfire. But keeping the mineral accurate would (in most cases) be educational to the players, and also good training: "sugar-free candy" can be regarded as a preliminary to "cotton candy", in that they are both minerals that your Strand Extractors can process for your dwarves to wear, and both have some negative consequences if you mine too much of them.

[GavJ]

I recall that the same argument was made against adding same-sex relationships. They went into vanilla though

Lack of asbestos does not insult 10% of the playerbase/population if intentionally left out, or make political statements... I.e. there are other additional reasons that were more important for same sex relationships beyond whether it's a trope or not. Also, I don't even think it's true that same sex relationships are any less represented in fantasy genres than anywhere else. Obviously most stories won't focus on them, but most real life people aren't gay, so...

Plus, which fantasy setting is microcline associated with?

Any story with granite in any of the buildings, as microcline is a major igneous intrusive rock-forming component mineral. I'm pretty sure I recall seeing a lot of granite buildings and monuments in LOTR, for one. Possibly Osgiliath, quite likely those two giant statues of the kings are full of microcline (they aren't limestone, since they show no weathering over a very long time), and a lot of those random ruins that they are always fighting orcs in the countryside in look like granite. Rohan's fortress looks suspiciously like it is built on an old, eroded volcanic neck that would probably be chock full of microcline.

But asbestos is not a fantasy element, it's a real mineral.

I don't think anybody in the thread has expressed any concern over the mineral being in game (which it already is). Just like microcline, factual existence of earth elements and other background context is generally taken for granted as existing unless otherwise stated. I.e., both chrysotile and microcline and high pressure fronts and rainbows are assumed to exist in all fantasy stories ever, unless the author says otherwise.

It's the behavioral usage of the mineral that seems off and doesn't match default expectations, and thus IS a fantasy element that would need to be discussed and wouldn't normally be assumed. So unlike the source mineral, its lack of mention in stories can be taken to suggest it doesn't exist or isn't important in them.

[Dirst]

First, the existence of "candy" is not a spoiler... there's a whole profession dedicated to extracting the damned stuff.  Consequences of mining it are spoilers.

Second, I'm in the "dwarven wool" camp.  The wiki can have a nice, detailed history of how the stuff was used in antiquity.

[dwarf_reform]

DF, and researching bits of DF, have taught me quite a bit, the most recent now being the history of antique asbestos I'm basically neutral on adding 'asbestos' in as 'asbestos', but if I were forced to an opinion I'd be 'for' it.. Mostly because the first thought that crosses my mind is that these magma-forge-smithing dwarves aren't doing it with their bare hands, since dwarven hands melt under high heat.. They're also not doing it with a set of precision magma-safe tools, since DF doesn't actively enforce tools.. So there is some unspoken/unexplained fire protection happening in there somewhere.

I just keep thinking about dwarves that live in an accident-prone world of dragonfire and magma, mechanisms and pipelines, book-keepers and brokers.. I don't see them interacting with heat as much as they do without creating some related protective gear along the way, even if it were only nether-cap plating :>

And DF does ride a fine line between gears and goblins, minerals and magicks, nobles and nightmares.. Asbestos seems perfectly at home within the 99.5% realistic geology setup; asbestos seems 'out of place' in a world with dragons and ettins.. I suppose it'd be up to Toady to add 'asbestos' to the 99.5% 'real' mineral setup, or to add 'dwarf-wool' to the somewhat lesser section of 'unreal' things (creatures and plants, mostly.. Currently the greater part of DF's content has a real-world counterpart..)

It has to evolve past its current point someday, I'd think.. Its odd that dragonfire will ignite the world, and melt ore, but won't melt tin walls, and can't boil or evaporate water, and can "generally effectively be blocked by a simple shield better than 99% of the time.", says the wiki.. Better than 99%!? Not much room for error, there..

Curious topic The same argument could probably be had over opium/poppy plant and its applications :> Or hemp, for that matter..

[Aseaheru]

Also, when magic is added asbestos might come up again, from the Rome magic thing. Magic-suppressors or protectors made from it might be interesting, and having an army with asbestos outer layers might be beneficial in fighting magic...

[GavJ]

Good arguments dwarf reform. Although I don't see why asbestos that isn't a construction ingredient you are treating asmasmore reasonable than stone or metal tools that also are not construction ingredients.

[Niddhoger]

I recall that the same argument was made against adding same-sex relationships. They went into vanilla though, so that reasoning isn't sufficient to not add something. Plus, which fantasy setting is microcline associated with? If you're going to use an argument it needs to hold as a general case, otherwise it's a cherry picked argument and not valid.

Don't confuse the arguments that bigots make with "logic."  Most fantasy settings don't deal with homosexuality for two reasons 1) most people (and authors) aren't gay, and 2) they don't want to make a political statement and mix their work into the shitstorm that is gay rights atm.  (w/e your stance on the subject, its still a controversial hot-topic issue). 
As far as homosexuality in a fantasy setting? Homosexuality is NOT a new thing, and is simply a part of human nature.  No work featuring humans should have homosexuality be "out of place" as it is simply one expression of natural human behavior.

Really? The average member of the public is more aware of asbestos mining than virtually any other mineral in Dwarf Fortress

This is simply not true.  Go on, try it.  Walk outside and start asking random people where asbestos comes from.  Most people know its harmful and that there were lawsuits around it... but the lawsuits were NOT limited to just miners.  All sorts of construction workers (not just for buildings but ships and numerous factories as well) and tenants living in buildings insulted with asbestos sued over damages caused by asbestos, or sued to simply remove it.  Obama even made a stink about how he did some "Community Organizing" to remove asbestos from a housing project.  If anything that is the most recent example of a lawsuit on the general public's mind, and it has NOTHING to do with mining.  Even if they know there is mining involved, they probably assume several processes to refine the base mineral are involved.  Like plastic, or something else synthetic. 

But asbestos is not a fantasy element, it's a real mineral.

You are missing the point.  Its a real mineral and easy to create material from the raw ore, but the problem is the connotations surrounding the mineral all firmly place it within the time-frame of "sins of the INDUSTRIAL era" People associate it with this era, and not with the ancient Romans or even a facet of natural geology.  As Gavj said, simply having the mineral in game is fine.  Its a natural mineral that has existed for eons and will exist for eons after us.  Its part of the world.  Asbestos however, is a refined product made by man.  Its trope is firmly rooted in the Industrial era NOT the fantasy one.  People can debate all they want about the properties of vampires and the # of legs a dragon has, but no one is going to question the inclusion of dragons and vampires in this FANTASY setting.  Radiation and Radiation poisoning are very real things, but are not considered appropriate for fantasy settings.  Imagine if Tolkein claimed that Gollum dug deep into the mountains and found a vein of -very- real uranium, and that by being fascinated by this material and staying near it too long all his hair fell out and he became the shrunken sickly thing we know of today.  This would simply feel out of place.  while Uranium and radiation poisoning are very real AND natural things, they are not typically associated with fantasy settings- but instead are concerns of the modern world.  You cannot ignore your audience when making a work, and the collective audience will not associate asbestos with romans (and those appropriate for dwarves to make) but with Lawsuits that are still going on today.

What people seem to forget is that I am all or adding asbestos into the game... the mineral and technology needed to create it certain fall within DF's setting.  However, I simply want "asbestos" to be renamed "dwarven wool/rock cloth" to avoid the connotations associated with asbestos AND as a convenient way to ignore its adverse health effects.  I imagine my army of dwarves all clothed in the very minerals they have mined themselves... NOT plant matter like elves, NOT some mundane animal product like silk or leather like humans, but out of ROCKS.  Its insanely dwarfy.  I simply want "asbestos" to be absorbed into a quirky thing dwarves do, and to abandon all the connotations linking it to lung cancer and lawsuits.  Take my Tolkien analogy earlier.  Instead of saying Gollum got warped by Uranium or Plutonium is off-putting, but substitute those with "a strange rock, suspiciously warm to the touch and glowing but infused with foul magics/cursed to weaken those that wield it...." and no one cares.  Just fold the properties of asbestos into the fantasy setting and rename it something else.  Those that know will know, those that don't won't bat an eye. 

[dwarf_reform]

With a little more thought, 'fire resistance' for dwarves seems pretty terrifying :> For it to be useful/relevant, the dragonfire would need to be less easy to block, since you wouldn't be able to make a magma-spelunking suit out of it.. And once dragonfire required fire-resistant clothing to contend with we'd be getting into what constitutes a complete suit of asbestos gear, assuming any exposed flesh caught in a massive cone of flames would begin to melt, and with the usual devastating consequences..

It sounds like you'd have to prepare an adventurer for each dragon hunt by building a fort with a full set of stored lungkiller gear, all the way down to the socks, if dragonfire were altered to make more than a simple shield required to resist it.. That, plus the limited amount of creatures that utilize fire for now, though I'm assuming this will become more dangerous as things progress (especially if I get my wishes for catapult-launched barrels of flammables and more options for starting fires during fort-mode, plus potential additions like flaming arrows)..

I hope DF will eventually have a broader set of resistances later on, maybe through some advanced tempering, of the usual RPG fare (lightning, poison, fire and cold, holy and evil type stuff).. Just adding the ability to temporarily coat blades or piercing weapons with substances would open lots of doors.. Still, it'd be almost impossible to swap three whole military squads worth of equipment over from frost-resist gear to lightning-resist gear quickly, just because an electricity titan suddenly shows up :|

At the end of the day, I'm just glad Toady has to make these choices, and I don't Pressure free over here!

[Aseaheru]

From what I have read about the planned features (And havent forgotten), Toady plans to add poisons, throwing interesting things from siege weapons, magic, and generally much of what you where just talking about.

[Bumber]

I hope DF will eventually have a broader set of resistances later on, maybe through some advanced tempering, of the usual RPG fare (lightning, poison, fire and cold, holy and evil type stuff).. Just adding the ability to temporarily coat blades or piercing weapons with substances would open lots of doors.. Still, it'd be almost impossible to swap three whole military squads worth of equipment over from frost-resist gear to lightning-resist gear quickly, just because an electricity titan suddenly shows up :|

I hope you brought your pregnancy armor to protect against that birth titan. Suddenly chestbursters, chestbursters everywhere! At least it's not as bad as a rainbow FB or... *shudders* dance demon.

[StagnantSoul]

I had a forgotten beast that apparently danced merrily. It also breathed fire and was made of rock.

[Bumber]

I had a forgotten beast that apparently danced merrily. It also breathed fire and was made of rock.

Even death cannot save you from the dancing.

[Dirst]

I had a forgotten beast that apparently danced merrily. It also breathed fire and was made of rock.

This calls for disco outfits made of asbestos...