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Petro Poroshenko

5 (29.4%)

Yulia Tymoshenko

2 (11.8%)

Oleg Lyashko

2 (11.8%)

Anatoly Hrytsenko

2 (11.8%)

Serhiy Tihipko

0 (0%)

Mykhailo Dobkin

0 (0%)

Other

6 (35.3%)

Total Members Voted: 17

[Helgoland]

Just look at what UR has said. That's what he thinks. That's what a lot of people think. The threat of war against us is real and will continue to be real while there are people who assume the Russian army to be weak, and there are plenty of people who think it even now, after the blitzkrieg of Georgia and the way the Ukrainian army got facebusted in August.

These kind of people will just assume it was a random fluke and that a real army would crush Russia in a matter of weeks effortlessly.

And thus you guys improve your army. And thus guys like me see a massive military buildup in the East, in a country that opressed half of mine (and the whole in other cases) for half a century. And thus we start to think that war is inevitable, and that maybe the war shouldd start rather sooner than later to prevent a repeat of the carnage of WWII...
Not that I think war is inevitable right now, but I could definitely go down that road if Russia continues like it does right now.

[Guardian G.I.]

If the USA was attacking Russians with drones or something I could go on Bay 12 and talk to you about it and hear just how terrible it is. Do you know how bad PR that is? Can you imagine what it would be like if people in Afghanistan were using English-language internet as much as Russians?

I think you may be overestimating the power of bad PR here.
When Bush decided to attack Iraq, there were mass demonstrations in America and elsewhere. Did it stop him? It didn't.
Did Bush's bad PR hurt him in any way? Of course no, there were no attempts of impeachment, there were no investigations, there were no criminal cases. Now he lives happily in retirement and paints shitty portraits.
Western politicians, especially American politicians, have no real accountability of their actions. If America decides to attack Russia, not 1 million, not even 10 million protesters will stop it. Only the threat of certain nuclear annihilation can make America reverse its course.

[Owlbread]

I think you may be overestimating the power of bad PR here.
When Bush decided to attack Iraq, there were mass demonstrations in America and elsewhere. Did it stop him? It didn't.

White-majority protests against the bombing of Iraqis is nothing compared to Iraqis going online and writing a blog/making youtube videos/posting on forums about what it's like to experience a drone attack. Can you imagine if some of the people from families that have lost their kids and siblings in Obama's bloody, murderous drone attacks on weddings were online writing about it and making videos watched by hundreds of thousands of people?

Did Bush's bad PR hurt him in any way? Of course no, there were no attempts of impeachment, there were no investigations, there were no criminal cases. Now he lives happily in retirement and paints shitty portraits.

Bush is from the Web 1.0 era. Different times.

Western politicians, especially American politicians, have no real accountability of their actions. If America decides to attack Russia, not 1 million, not even 10 million protesters will stop it. Only the threat of certain nuclear annihilation can make America reverse its course.

I'll give you that much - that they have little accountability for their actions. However, the PR disasters of Afghanistan and Iraq are the main reasons why we're pulling out. It's simply too difficult to stay in without becoming extremely unpopular and getting voted out. Unlike United Russia and Lukashenko's mafiosi the Tories, Democrats, Labour and Republicans get voted out on a regular basis.

[Sergarr]

Owlbread, you underestimate just how much hate the nearby states have for Russia.

Backed by NATO, there are non-zero chances that states like Finland, Estonia, Ukraine and Georgia would try to salami-attack us. Without nuclear weapons, we would be able to do nothing to stop them, since of course the West would win the PR battle and every single situation will be interpreted in a anti-Russian manner.

I've seen it with Georgia, where the West has managed to prop up and spread around a literal reversal of what happened.

It will happen again.

The war is inevitable as long as Russia continues to exist.

[Darvi]

Backed by NATO, there are non-zero chances that states like Finland, Estonia, Ukraine and Georgia would try to salami-attack us.

why

[Knit tie]

Backed by NATO, there are non-zero chances that states like Finland, Estonia, Ukraine and Georgia would try to salami-attack us.

why

Because what we have here in this discussion is pro-Russians with ultrapatriotic Sergarr vs. pro-westerners with Red Scared leftists such as Sheb and Owlbread.

Do not expect any reason, they are all just running of fear and prejudice.

[mainiac]

Do not expect any reason, they are all just running of fear and prejudice.

Oh hey, they have that in common with you!

Or wait, is it polite when you say that but rude when I say that?  Goddamn it mainiac, why you gotta be so rude?  Why cant you be polite like Knit Tie?

[Darvi]

Backed by NATO, there are non-zero chances that states like Finland, Estonia, Ukraine and Georgia would try to salami-attack us.

why

Because what we have here in this discussion is pro-Russians with ultrapatriotic Sergarr vs. pro-westerners with Red Scared leftists such as Sheb and Owlbread.

Do not expect any reason, they are all just running of fear and prejudice.

See, this is why we, and you in particular, can't have nice things.

[Sergarr]

Backed by NATO, there are non-zero chances that states like Finland, Estonia, Ukraine and Georgia would try to salami-attack us.

why

1) ludicrous amount of hate
2) nationalists trying to recreate their favorite states of old
3) fear that if they don't attack, they'll get conquered first
4) they'll get payed for it

[Darvi]

Sauce?

Also, any reason why NATO would back an unprovoked attack by one of its members.

[Knit tie]

Sauce?

Also, any reason why NATO would back an unprovoked attack by one of its members.

Fear and prejudice. That is indeed why we can't have nice things.

I mean fear and prejudice is the main reason Sergarr's writing this drivel, not why NATO would back an Estonian attack on Russia.

[Knit tie]

My head is starting to hurt at this whole thread. The amount of mental leaps required to get to half of these assumptions is just... ugh.

I know, right? For some reason, Ukraine can get even Bay12er to lose their composure - just look at yours truly, and several times at that!

Anyway, I think we've reached the point here where anti-Russians like Helgo just keep bringing up the old "evil empire" card to somehow justify warring with Russia on the basis that Russia is dangerous and needs to be stopped, which is eerily similar to how the Americans viewed their reasons for wars in Iraq and Vietnam at first, while pro-Russians Sergarr's gonna hold onto his lunatic hat, and no real discussion will occur.

I think I should lock the thread for the day, but that's just my opinion.

[Owlbread]

Because what we have here in this discussion is pro-Russians with ultrapatriotic Sergarr vs. pro-westerners with Red Scared leftists such as Sheb and Owlbread.

Do not expect any reason, they are all just running of fear and prejudice.

Are Sheb and I "Red-Scarfed Leftists" or "Red Scare Leftists"?

Spoiler: I can now join my brethren in Brittany (click to show/hide)

I suppose they were demonstrating against tax though. I'd just raise it.

[Erkki]

Backed by NATO, there are non-zero chances that states like Finland, Estonia, Ukraine and Georgia would try to salami-attack us.

Lol. But then again I guess Russians if anyone know that attack is the best defense. Why would we even want back areas that don't have our people because they've been moved away and that are underdeveloped and are like a time travel back to the 60s or something? Again, it has been Russia herself who has been rising the tension. Russia has declared USA and EU its rivals within the year, not the other way around.

I've seen it with Georgia, where the West has managed to prop up and spread around a literal reversal of what happened.

It will happen again.

The war is inevitable as long as Russia continues to exist.

The last is possibly true, but I wouldn't be so certain of the first. You shouldn't confuse FOX to Western media(or dunno which ones you have been following). Georgia certainly was not presented as fully innocent even if Russia's attack was condemned widely.

You are making the world look more polarized than it is.

Fear and prejudice. That is indeed why we can't have nice things.

I mean fear and prejudice is the main reason Sergarr's writing this drivel, not why NATO would back an Estonian attack on Russia.
[/quote]

Hopefully Estonia and its to-be-owned-later-in-2015 mighty force of 6 tanks and 12 IFVs dont have to attack Russia. You are warned. 

[Knit tie]

Because what we have here in this discussion is pro-Russians with ultrapatriotic Sergarr vs. pro-westerners with Red Scared leftists such as Sheb and Owlbread.

Do not expect any reason, they are all just running of fear and prejudice.

Are Sheb and I "Red-Scarfed Leftists" or "Red Scare Leftists"?

Well you gave us a good tirade on how Russia should be taken apart and the land given to the people some time ago, mate, and you sure as hell are leftist, so...