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Petro Poroshenko

5 (29.4%)

Yulia Tymoshenko

2 (11.8%)

Oleg Lyashko

2 (11.8%)

Anatoly Hrytsenko

2 (11.8%)

Serhiy Tihipko

0 (0%)

Mykhailo Dobkin

0 (0%)

Other

6 (35.3%)

Total Members Voted: 17

[Sergarr]

Ukrainians do not deserve hate. They're way too silly to actually hate.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

The new European order in Ukraine.
Less social protections!
Less education!
Slava Ukraine!
No, seriously, stop.
Ukraine, what the fuck
What the fuck is this shit
Is this what you really wanted, Ukrainians?
Does that seem like a European quality of life here?
This is death of all your currently socially protected classes of population right here
It would be incredibly ironic if UR were to suffer from the cancellation of oh-so-many social protections at once.
Bet you didn't expect that to happen, do you?
But now, this is your future.
This is the future you chose willingly.
We were trying to warn you, but you didn't listen.
And now you'll pay the price for being deaf.
Who needs 11 years of education, anyways?
9 years would be more than enough for Brave New Ukraine.

Spent some time reading that....  Fail to see your logic. Optimization of social spending with some questionable moments. Some stuff is 100% good.  Not that I'll trust anything coming from that site.

Besides even if it is true internal documents.... That looks like suggestions what can be done to save money There are no reasons to believe that each and every measure will be taken

[smjjames]

What the heck is the one about paying the price for being deaf?

[Knit tie]

Another thing about Tatars and Russians is that, currently, all Tatars but the Crimean ones admit that their Khanates have been incessantly raiding and enslaving then-Russians as their main source of income ever since their creation and throughout the centuries, up until they were forced to stop by Russian conquerors putting sharp objects to their necks and saying "bad, bad Tatar!", which gives a bit of a different moral colouring to ancient Tatar-Russian relations. Crimean Tatars, though, seem to have chosen the "we are a poor, oppressed people!" narrative for themselves, instead.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Yes, they decided to get deported in 1944 to play an "oppressed" card in 2014. Very cunning strategy indeed.

[Knit tie]

Yes, they decided to get deported in 1944 to play an "oppressed" card in 2014. Very cunning strategy indeed.

Weren't the only ones to get deported, though. Or the ones to suffer in 1944, or in general under Stalin, for that matter.

Them Georgian Ossetians man, you know nothing good ever comes out of Georgian Ossetians!

[Helgoland]

Yes, they decided to get deported in 1944 to play an "oppressed" card in 2014. Very cunning strategy indeed.

Weren't the only ones to get deported, though. Or the ones to suffer in 1944, or in general under Stalin, for that matter.

They shouldn't complain, because others had it bad too? I believe the post-war Stalinist USSR said the same thing about the Jews...

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Post-war USSR?

"That Jews with their Holocaust pretend that other nations never suffered in WW2" is something I heard many times from Russians

[Knit tie]

Post-war USSR?

"That Jews with their Holocaust pretend that other nations never suffered in WW2" is something I heard many times from Russians

I have heard "Russians have suffered very little in WW2, while millions of Ukrainians fell fighting both Stalin and Hitler" many times as well. Yet I do not assume that such fringe views are representative of the majority of Ukrainians. Besides, there's a big difference between denying the Holocaust and insisting that the Holocaust wasn't unique to the European Jewry, that many other peoples (Armenians at the hands of Turks, most Chinese peoples at the hands of IJA, many, many peoples in Africa at the hands of each other and colonial powers, Romani at the hands of Nazis, Kurds at the hands of Saddam Hussein, the list goes on) have also been subjected to genocide and that pretending that what happened in Nazi Germany was somehow unique and unrepeatable means rendering ourselves willfully blind to any future Holocausts.

Yes, they decided to get deported in 1944 to play an "oppressed" card in 2014. Very cunning strategy indeed.

Weren't the only ones to get deported, though. Or the ones to suffer in 1944, or in general under Stalin, for that matter.

They shouldn't complain, because others had it bad too? I believe the post-war Stalinist USSR said the same thing about the Jews...

True, I apologise, that wasn't a nice thing of me to say.

[mainiac]

Words can not express.

[Knit tie]

Words can only bullet train.

[MDFification]

Probably the closest analogy that can be applied here is that the Crimea is a part of Russia where much blood was shed for the defence of the country against the invaders. Kind of like Kosovo for Serbians.

The hypocrisy of Serbian ultranationalists proclaiming "Kosovo is Serbian, Crimea is Russian" amuses me to no end. The irrationality of such people shines through in this example.

Why is it irrational to say that for kosovo?

The analogy isn't anywhere near close. Kosovo was originally Serbian for centuries - since late antiquity even. Russia invaded Crimea which was never Russian to begin with just 200 years ago, occupied the country and later expelled the indigenous population to settle it with civilised Slavic master race who always know better than the natives. Russians are closer to the Albanians in Kosovo except the Russians possibly have less of a moral right to be there considering the Albanians settled peacefully. The original Albanian settlers in Kosovo were actually refugees - expelled by the Serbs from their homes in Southern Serbia.

The analogy also isn't anywhere near close because Kosovo has a majority population that isn't Serbian. It doesn't speak Serbian, doesn't identify as Serbian, and is in no way Serbian in culture. Kosovo is Albanian, and that population has been there basically the whole time, regardless of whether or not it was under the control of a Serbian polity. Ireland was under the control of the English for hundreds of years, but that doesn't make them rightfully English. The policy of self-determination and the concept of ethnic nationalism are pretty well established, so I don't see the point in reiterating them.

[Knit tie]

Probably the closest analogy that can be applied here is that the Crimea is a part of Russia where much blood was shed for the defence of the country against the invaders. Kind of like Kosovo for Serbians.

The hypocrisy of Serbian ultranationalists proclaiming "Kosovo is Serbian, Crimea is Russian" amuses me to no end. The irrationality of such people shines through in this example.

Why is it irrational to say that for kosovo?

The analogy isn't anywhere near close. Kosovo was originally Serbian for centuries - since late antiquity even. Russia invaded Crimea which was never Russian to begin with just 200 years ago, occupied the country and later expelled the indigenous population to settle it with civilised Slavic master race who always know better than the natives. Russians are closer to the Albanians in Kosovo except the Russians possibly have less of a moral right to be there considering the Albanians settled peacefully. The original Albanian settlers in Kosovo were actually refugees - expelled by the Serbs from their homes in Southern Serbia.

The analogy also isn't anywhere near close because Kosovo has a majority population that isn't Serbian. It doesn't speak Serbian, doesn't identify as Serbian, and is in no way Serbian in culture. Kosovo is Albanian, and that population has been there basically the whole time, regardless of whether or not it was under the control of a Serbian polity. Ireland was under the control of the English for hundreds of years, but that doesn't make them rightfully English. The policy of self-determination and the concept of ethnic nationalism are pretty well established, so I don't see the point in reiterating them.

Saying that Kosovo is rightfully Serbian because it has been under Serbian control for a long time is like saying that Scotland is rightfully English because it has been under English control for a long time. Or, instead of arguing about some ephemeral and extremely subjective "moral rights" of various people to own a chunk of land, I don't think it would be preposterous to just say that the absolute majority of people who nowadays live in Crimea really did want to join Russia, and thus that the annexation of Crimea was, to a very significant extent, in accordance with the desires of most of the Crimeans.

[mainiac]

I'm pretty sure you are the only one saying that a place is "rightfully" anyone's.  Everyone else is living in the 21st century.

[Knit tie]

I'm pretty sure you are the only one saying that a place is "rightfully" anyone's.  Everyone else is living in the 21st century.

We get it, you hate Russians.