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Total Members Voted: 17

[Frumple]

... I haven't been paying the most attention, but I'm still deeply confused as to why the US is regularly brought up in discussions regarding compromises over... whatever. I'm... pretty sure we're not heavily involved in whatever's going on over there. I mean, sure, there's been some lackluster PR stuff and some perfunctory diplomatic responses, but... that's been about it. Even the sanctions over russia invading a sovereign country have been fairly half-hearted. Why is russia trying to compromise with the US? Shouldn't it be trying to compromise with ukraine, or maybe the EU at most?

It's, just... the US is over here. Ukraine is over there. States... don't really care about ukraine. Don't really care about russia in particular, either, last I've checked -- they've had most everything they want out of russia for a long time, now, and this mess doesn't particularly seem to be changing that, insofar as I can tell. So why the odd fixation?

I get this feeling like watching someone punch someone else, and then yelling at an uninvolved passerby to give the puncher money or else. It's the weirdest sort of non-sequitur.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

The US really should stop sending it's soldiers to the Ukraine

[Ukrainian Ranger]

With an economy threatening to default and an increasingly unstable political climate, Ukraine itself may end us as Transdnistria, or, more precisely, as another -stan. But hey, that means new shipment of Russian Brides and cheap immigrant labor for the Europe again, just like in the 90s!

So, Ukraine gets default and... And what? Argentina got two in the last twenty years, it is not like default results in becoming Somalia

As for increasingly unstable political climate. It is understandable that for Russians, any kind of competition between various ideas and political forces equals to instability. I call it stimulating competition, concept that is very alien for any Russian.

As for the future. Ukraine will win simply because our motivation is way higher than Russian. Price  that we'll have to pay may be scary.

I know one thing, Russia is pregnant with a war, with a large war that will take hundreds of thousands or even millions of Russians. It is hard to say what war will it be, full scale war with Ukraine, Russian civil war, nuclear war vs rest of the world or even defensive war against Chinese expansion. But the war will come in the next ten years, probably much sooner

[smjjames]

Probably because the US is kind of the go-to country if you want to blame for something in the west in general.

I don't really get the fixation either.

The US really should stop sending it's soldiers to the Ukraine

AFAIK, there were only some there for those military exercizes.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

No, I'm pretty sure Obama is the one destabilizing Ukraine

[smjjames]

Oh I see, sarcastic non-sequitur.

Offtopic, what happened to your avatar mictl?

[Mictlantecuhtli]

.... Seems the host is down. Well..

[miljan]

... I haven't been paying the most attention, but I'm still deeply confused as to why the US is regularly brought up in discussions regarding compromises over... whatever. I'm... pretty sure we're not heavily involved in whatever's going on over there. I mean, sure, there's been some lackluster PR stuff and some perfunctory diplomatic responses, but... that's been about it. Even the sanctions over russia invading a sovereign country have been fairly half-hearted. Why is russia trying to compromise with the US? Shouldn't it be trying to compromise with ukraine, or maybe the EU at most?

It's, just... the US is over here. Ukraine is over there. States... don't really care about ukraine. Don't really care about russia in particular, either, last I've checked -- they've had most everything they want out of russia for a long time, now, and this mess doesn't particularly seem to be changing that, insofar as I can tell. So why the odd fixation?

I get this feeling like watching someone punch someone else, and then yelling at an uninvolved passerby to give the puncher money or else. It's the weirdest sort of non-sequitur.

Listen to this, and you will see/hear
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSxaa-67yGM
After this I think US is a lot more involved than I thought (even so that you say they dont care and are somewhere over there  )

[Frumple]

... reeeeaaallly can't be arsed to get youtube running and subsequently investigate the importance of a random 'tube video. YT doesn't play all that well with my computer, generally. Anyone have a transcript/summation and/or confirmation of/news article about whatever point is trying to be made?

[miljan]

... reeeeaaallly can't be arsed to get youtube running and subsequently investigate the importance of a random 'tube video. YT doesn't play all that well with my computer, generally. Anyone have a transcript/summation and/or confirmation of/news article about whatever point is trying to be made?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957
or
http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-eu-clash-on-how-to-install-a-puppet-regime-in-ukraine-victoria-nuland/5367794

[smjjames]

... reeeeaaallly can't be arsed to get youtube running and subsequently investigate the importance of a random 'tube video. YT doesn't play all that well with my computer, generally. Anyone have a transcript/summation and/or confirmation of/news article about whatever point is trying to be made?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957
or
http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-eu-clash-on-how-to-install-a-puppet-regime-in-ukraine-victoria-nuland/5367794

You're just posting conspiracy theory stuff again.....

[miljan]

... reeeeaaallly can't be arsed to get youtube running and subsequently investigate the importance of a random 'tube video. YT doesn't play all that well with my computer, generally. Anyone have a transcript/summation and/or confirmation of/news article about whatever point is trying to be made?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957
or
http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-eu-clash-on-how-to-install-a-puppet-regime-in-ukraine-victoria-nuland/5367794

You're just posting conspiracy theory stuff again.....

Your so much blind that you will not see the truth even that west medias posted it (if they are not to your liking) and even  after you government acknowledges it, including people that talked in the leaked transcript (yes it is truth, yes US is involved)

The most funny thing is US is complaining about russia leaking the tapes and not what was talked in it. Mind blowing.

[Knit tie]

Why make an agreement with someone who just broke several? Also "we take what we want" is not exactly a compromise. "West" would effectively lose its creditability and face by just letting Russia, that has the initiative now, get whatever it wants.

Do Russians understand that EU and NATO both to a very large degree exist because people are fed up with wars and arms races and don't really happen to care if their countries are world wide military powers or not, and especially they don't want the borders to be moved in Europe by force ever again. The scars of the 2 world wars remain very deep.

One can understand Russia's behavior but it doesn't need to be accepted.

I predict that Russians will continue to blame Obama for their own aggression.

Probably.

You start with an accusation that the west is to blame and then act offended when I turn it around.  What possible purpose does this serve except to be a dick?  You just act like a dick, wait for someone to call you a dick and then tell them your rude.

Both the west and Russia are to blame for getting into this hardheaded conrontation and prolonging the war.

It should be easy to to pull troops out of East Ukraine. It would have been easy to not annex Crimea.

The whole political crisis has been one big political hodgepodge of blame and escalating hostilities, with, as I said both the west and Russia having a part in the institutialisation of the current conflict and neither of the sides being able to claim moral superiority. On Russia's side, we have the whole annexation, which NATO boldly claims is unprecedented, and also the murky business with rebel support, which is pretty much a standard operating model of the western involvement in Libya and Syria. On Western side, we have support of the Euromaidan that may or may not have actually accomplished anything, supporting a rather radically nationalistic, so to say, government in Ukraine and conveniently not mentioning what Kiyv wants to do with the dissenters. Both factions are reluctant to back down, as Erkki correctly said, Cameron, Obama and co. cannot really afford to let Putin get what he wants, while the man himself refuses to cooperate on any terms but his own.

Now, outside of politcians' offices, down on the ground, we have a civil war going on, which wasn't provoked neither by Russia, not by the west, but was rather an unfortunate consequence of both, and in which I support the rebels, despite all the squabbling of their commanders for power, supplies and money (allegedly sometimes extorted), because unlike their opponents, they don't use punitive regiments with an explisit task of, well, punishing civilians and dissidents.


EDIT: The Wall Street Journal's answer to the fake photo of Ukrainian jet.

[mainiac]

Ah so before we can explain that it's bad to invade your neighbors we have to justify all foreign policy by every NATO member state.  Just y'know, explain all of post-Westphalian diplomacy.  Perhaps as an encore solve the problem of agency?

Personally I think it's a very rude thing to expect someone to provide all evidence about a huge number of things while clinging to flimsy excuses.  But hey, apparently I just dont understand rudeness.  It's a polite thing to take cheap shots and an impolite thing to call people dicks for doing it.

[Frumple]

... stepped into some weird shit, apparently.

Any actual confirmation that youtube video means anything? Proof it was who they say it was, any signs of actual substantial involvement, etc., etc.?

Though, uh. No, Nuland hasn't apparently said anything on the subject*, from what I could find out checking those and a few other sources. Someone else said some diplomatic non-speak (which I'd honestly expect to come out sounding about the same regardless of whether the video was real or not), according to the articles flapping around, but that was about it. Not really sparking my US!shadowpuppetting switch. Maybe a "politician being politician" one (assuming that's actually who was involved in the conversation), but not much more than that.

*Did Pyatt? Standard cursory skimming and whatnot didn't notice any mention on that end. Most I can find on apparent official statement comes from Psaki's words a few days after the video was posted.