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[miljan]

Well, until very recently, we were living that dream of not having states use force against each others within Europe, thank you very much.

Maybe in last 14 years or so. But just to note, EU is not one country, hack they can still have war against each other, even nato countries fought among them self  before, so anything can happen and nothing is safe.

In the same way that it's physically possible for a helicopter to fall through the roof of my house and crush me, it is physically possible for Britain to go to war with Luxembourg.

It is. Eu doesnt prevent it, and no one know what the future will bring. With all the immigration, war in other parts of the world and similar, problems can very easily start to pop up in next few decades the moment there are some economic or other crisis.

[Knit tie]

Peace does not create prosperity, it's the other way around most of the time.

[Owlbread]

Wait, wait, wait, you honestly think that the gensek wasn't just another form of the Tsar? That's everything the revolution did - exchanged one tsar for another. And everything good that happened in the USSR happened due to those gensek tsars making right decisions and exhibiting benevolence.

But ask yourself this - who were the Red Tsars before they became Tsars? They were ordinary Russians who followed their dreams.

[Dutchling]

Wait, wait, wait, you honestly think that the gensek wasn't just another form of the Tsar? That's everything the revolution did - exchanged one tsar for another. And everything good that happened in the USSR happened due to those gensek tsars making right decisions and exhibiting benevolence.

But ask yourself this - who were the Red Tsars before they became Tsars? They were ordinary Russians who followed their dreams.

"follow your dreams because fuck everyone else"

[MonkeyHead]

I can not remember who it was, but a well known philosopher once came up with the following conclusion:

In the EU, people are open to compromise and concession in order to come to some kind of mutually beneficial conclusion.

In Russia, people generally assume that the only possible correct position is A or B - no halfway. Compromise is not an option.

Both positions clearly have their merits and drawbacks. In this thread however the last page or so of posts is clearly showing the advantages of the EU mindset far more than the Russian one, which is shining a light on its negativity.

Though, as an EU bod, I would say that, right?

[Fniff]

Wait, wait, wait, you honestly think that the gensek wasn't just another form of the Tsar? That's everything the revolution did - exchanged one tsar for another. And everything good that happened in the USSR happened due to those gensek tsars making right decisions and exhibiting benevolence.

But ask yourself this - who were the Red Tsars before they became Tsars? They were ordinary Russians who followed their dreams.

"follow your dreams because fuck everyone else"

Seems about right.

[Knit tie]

I can not remember who it was, but a well known philosopher once came up with the following conclusion:

In the EU, people are open to compromise and concession in order to come to some kind of mutually beneficial conclusion.

In Russia, people generally assume that the only possible correct position is A or B - no halfway. Compromise is not an option.

Both positions clearly have their merits and drawbacks. In this thread however the last page or so of posts is clearly showing the advantages of the EU mindset far more than the Russian one, which is shining a light on its negativity.

Though, as an EU bod, I would say that, right?

As a weak and spineless Europansy, you certainly would

Although, in all seriousness, this "we are peaceful, you are warlike" argument has been used extensively by both Russians and Europe in this discussion and throughout history alike. Like all people, Russians can compromise. What we don't do is surrender, we tend to be crazily obstinate when sufficiently antagonized, and what NATO has done by expanding into Ukraine is antagonize us. Russia will keep this standoff going on sheer hardheadedness until we get some concessions from the opposing side, Crimea among them.

[Owlbread]

Although, in all seriousness, this "we are peaceful, you are warlike" argument has been used extensively by both Russians and Europe both in this discussion and throughout history. Like all people, Russians can compromise. What we don't do is surrender, we tend to be crazily obstinate when sufficiently antagonized, and what NATO has done by expanding into Ukraine is antagonize us. Russia will keep this standoff going on sheer hardheadedness until we get some concessions from the opposing side, Crimea among them.

It's that kind of mindset that's toxic. Ukraine isn't a country, it's not a place that has a right to national self determination, it's Russian turf. It's a satellite. It's part of Russia's empire. If Ukraine decides to Westernise and we encourage that to happen by providing support to those who are driving the Westernisation, we're encroaching on Russia's turf and therefore antagonising Russia.

Maybe Russia should stop viewing other countries as possessions? It's not the West's fault the rule of Russia is so unpleasant other countries are trying to leave its domineering grasp. Russia's terrified of that too - that's why Putin has turned East Ukraine into a toilet, to coerce the other satellites into line. Do you see what's happening in East Ukraine and South Ossetia, Kazakhstan? You don't want that to happen to you, do you?

[Knit tie]

It's part of Russia's empire. If Ukraine decides to Westernise and we encourage that to happen by providing support to those who are driving the Westernisation,

Even if the westernisers are all thoroughly corrupt, totalitarian oligarchs who are best friends with neo-nazis? Even if their popular support before their domination of Ukraine's media was not that impressive and their overthrow succeeded mostly due to the overabundance of far-right radicals in its ranks? Even if they are currently terror bombing the part of Ukraine that did not want to westernize?

All countries, with perhaps the exception of Germany, are selfish assholes.

You are not better than us.

[Owlbread]

Even if the westernisers are all thoroughly corrupt, totalitarian oligarchs who are best friends with neo-nazis?

You're asking me to choose between two countries controlled by thoroughly corrupt, totalitarian oligarchs who are best friends with neo-nazis.

Even if their popular support before their domination of Ukraine's media was not that impressive

I think concrete evidence is required here.

and their overthrow succeeded mostly due to the overabundance of far-right radicals in its ranks?

Right-wing politics is very popular in Ukraine, unfortunately, just as it is in Russia. There's practically no difference between them and the pro-Russian opposition, however - who are just as right wing. As always the far-right are the movers and shakers. I'm sure if Putin was the one rising to power on the crest of a revolutionary wave he'd have his far-right Night Wolves at the forefront.

Even if they are currently terror bombing the part of Ukraine that did not want to westernize?

I disagree with the bombing campaign and the Ukrainian military is incompetent. Ultimately though the conclusions remain the same.

You are not better than us. All countries, sans perhaps the exception of Germany, are selfish assholes.

Shoehorning in another tu quoque for good measure isn't necessary here.

[Knit tie]

I don't think its tu quoque when you are arguing about moral superiority.

[Owlbread]

I don't think its tu quoque when you are arguing about moral superiority.

You can interpret it that way, but my argument is less about our moral superiority over Russia and more about Russia's inability to recognise neighbouring countries as countries of equal status to Russia, rather than Imperial possessions of Russia. I've already been over my opinions of the USA's own failings on that front.

[Knit tie]

I don't think its tu quoque when you are arguing about moral superiority.

You can interpret it that way, but my argument is less about our moral superiority over Russia and more about Russia's inability to recognise countries as countries rather than Imperial possessions. I've already been over my opinions of the USA's own failings on that front.

Okay, then, if that's what you are saying - I agree with you.

[Owlbread]

Okay, then, if that's what you are saying - I agree with you.

It is. The West is in no way superior. Talking of turning countries into toilets for the sake of Imperial ambitions, we need only look at the middle east.

[Knit tie]

I can do nothing but agree with this view, mate.