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[Knit tie]

Perhaps it's his style of propaganda - debunk obvious lies in order to appear objective and then lie in the details?

That could very well be - it's my tactic as well when I want to convince someone as opposed to debating them.

You sneaky Bratwurst, now I know why you were so friendly with me earlier!

[Helgoland]

Hey, that was just basic diplomacy - keeping communication channels open, maintaining a good atmosphere etc. I'm talking about pointing out the little holes in my argument so the other guy misses the huge and tiny ones.

[Guardian G.I.]

Ukrainian official sources claim that Ukrainian forces have broken into Donetsk itself during their counter-attack against Novorossiyan forces.

[Helgoland]

Oh God, and I thought the fighting was on its way to dying down... If those claims are true, it'll prolong the war by quite a bit.

[Knit tie]

Ukrainian official sources claim that Ukrainian forces have broken into Donetsk itself during their counter-attack against Novorossiyan forces.

Ukrainian official sources have not recommended themselves as particularly truthful so far, unfortunately, so I'd wait until the rebels start to talk about this before making any conclusions.

[Helgoland]

Ukrainian official sources claim that Ukrainian forces have broken into Donetsk itself during their counter-attack against Novorossiyan forces.

Ukrainian official sources have not recommended themselves as particularly truthful so far, unfortunately, so I'd wait until the rebels start to talk about this before making any conclusions.

Says the guy who previously posted without comment a seperatist source claiming the Ukrainian Army had been pushed out of Donetsk airport...

[Knit tie]

Ukrainian official sources claim that Ukrainian forces have broken into Donetsk itself during their counter-attack against Novorossiyan forces.

Ukrainian official sources have not recommended themselves as particularly truthful so far, unfortunately, so I'd wait until the rebels start to talk about this before making any conclusions.

Says the guy who previously posted without comment a seperatist source claiming the Ukrainian Army had been pushed out of Donetsk airport...

That was confirmed by photos, videos and the Ukrainian soldiers' panicking messages. I'll wait for the photos and videos from the AFU soldiers in Donetsk and the rebels' panicking messages to show up before I start taking the Ukrainian claims seriously.

EDIT: OSCE guys say that that infamous bus was not fired at from the directions the rebels were in.

[Helgoland]

Ukrainian official sources claim that Ukrainian forces have broken into Donetsk itself during their counter-attack against Novorossiyan forces.

Ukrainian official sources have not recommended themselves as particularly truthful so far, unfortunately, so I'd wait until the rebels start to talk about this before making any conclusions.

Says the guy who previously posted without comment a seperatist source claiming the Ukrainian Army had been pushed out of Donetsk airport...

That was confirmed by the Ukrainian soldiers' panicking messages, photos and videos.

Soldiers who still were inside the airport... Sorry, misremembered. It apppears that you never claimed they'd been pushed out entirely, my bad.

EDIT: OSCE guys say that that infamous bus was not fired at from the directions the rebels were in.

Since it's OSCE, could you find an English source? You'll forgive me for being sceptical of Russian state media...

[Knit tie]

Ukrainian official sources claim that Ukrainian forces have broken into Donetsk itself during their counter-attack against Novorossiyan forces.

Ukrainian official sources have not recommended themselves as particularly truthful so far, unfortunately, so I'd wait until the rebels start to talk about this before making any conclusions.

Says the guy who previously posted without comment a seperatist source claiming the Ukrainian Army had been pushed out of Donetsk airport...

That was confirmed by the Ukrainian soldiers' panicking messages, photos and videos.

Soldiers who still were inside the airport... Sorry, misremembered. It apppears that you never claimed they'd been pushed out entirely, my bad.

EDIT: OSCE guys say that that infamous bus was not fired at from the directions the rebels were in.

Since it's OSCE, could you find an English source? You'll forgive me for being sceptical of Russian state media...

Not at the moment, unfortunately. The findings were given to the ITAR-TASS by the Russian OSCE representative, and since they are, essentially, pro-Russian, they aren't being trumpeted all over the Western news. I'd wait one or two days before expecting this to appear in English, most likely very discreetly, although perhaps this really is a lie, though I don't think that it's a likely move for the ITAR-TASS to lie so blatantly.

EDIT: Look at how great this exchange went: I and you both said that we are going to be sceptical of Ukrainian and Russian claims respectively, until we recieve further confirmation of them. Our argument blades are locked in a deadly stalemate!

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Spoiler: Decepticons are on Ukrainian side (click to show/hide)

First neo-nazies now evil aliens...  Russian invasion becomes more and more justified

[Frumple]

... you'd expect the decepticons to be on the side of the rebellion, though...

Interesting implications if the anti-oppressive-government side of the giant robot civil war is fighting for the ukrainian forces.

[Sheb]

Ok, so it seems that the OSCE sent a fact-finding mission to analyze the site of the bus attack. It concluded that all craters were caused by rocket attacks coming from the north-north-east. You know what is north-north-east of that checkpoint? Donetsk.

Now, Kiev's first claim was that the rocket were fired from the east, so it was spun by the Russian ambassador to the OSCE as "OSCE report contradict Kiev's claim".

So yeah, stupidly crude propaganda Knit Tie, I'd expect better of you.

[Guardian G.I.]

Ukrainian official sources claim that Ukrainian forces have broken into Donetsk itself during their counter-attack against Novorossiyan forces.

Ukrainian official sources have not recommended themselves as particularly truthful so far, unfortunately, so I'd wait until the rebels start to talk about this before making any conclusions.

On the other side of the information war, pro-Novorossiyan Colonel Cassad claims that their forces have thwarted the Ukrainian counter-attack, destroying approximately from 4 to 8 armoured vehicles. According to him, Ukrainian forces have lost about 20 people killed, 56 Ukrainian soldiers were wounded. He expects more Ukrainian attacks later this evening.

Ukrainian sources also claim that one of DNR's field commanders, Motorola, was killed during the Ukrainian counter-offensive, citing this radio chatter, where he requested artillery support at his positions while gratuitously swearing. Cassad claims that Motorola is alive. Motorola's death was reported by the Ukrainian media at least twice before, during the siege of Slavyansk and during the fighting near the airport in October, but he turned out to be alive and well.

Patriotic Ukrainian journalists claim that Ukrainian troops pushed the Novorossiyan forces from the airport area to the bus station at Krasnoarmeevskoye motorway, to the south of the airport and south-east from Ukrainian positions near Peski. The actual situation on the front line remains unclear.

[Knit tie]

Ok, so it seems that the OSCE sent a fact-finding mission to analyze the site of the bus attack. It concluded that all craters were caused by rocket attacks coming from the north-north-east. You know what is north-north-east of that checkpoint? Donetsk.

Now, Kiev's first claim was that the rocket were fired from the east, so it was spun by the Russian ambassador to the OSCE as "OSCE report contradict Kiev's claim".

So yeah, stupidly crude propaganda Knit Tie, I'd expect better of you.

The thing is that we need a map to look at, to see where exactly the rebels and the Ukrainian forces were. If the rebels were in the east, that's one thing, if they were in the north-north east, that's another.

[Sheb]

From the OSCE report: "The SMM concluded its third fact-finding patrol to government-controlled Volnovakha (35km south-west of Donetsk)"

So Donetsk is north-east/north-north-east of the checkpoint. That's where the rocket came from.

Edit: So I ws wondering if I could find some kind of reports about what's life like in the DPR and LPR. Didn't find them, but I stumbled on this: http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/russian-culture-ministry-moves-to-ban-films-that-undermine-national-unity/514440.html

What's your take on this Knit Tie?