Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[smjjames]

Yeah, my point was not that we're growing paranoid, it that by being willing to use force, Russia effectively changed the rules of international relations in Europe, and the new ruleset is more dangerous and expensive.

And can you explain why you seem so confident that Russia and NATO will never go to war? Sure, nobody wants a war, but that never stopped us in the past.

I disagree with WWI. No one wanted a large war. The Austrian wanted a war, true, but a small one against Serbia to settle their score with them.

Which THEN snowballed due to alliances.

[Knit tie]

@Sheb: I completely agree with you there. Europe is growing paranoid due to Russia no longer being docile/peaceful/lawful/whatever term you want to use. Paranoia leads to wars.

If I understood him correctly, that was not his point at all: Paranoia is usually defined as unsubstantiated fear, and he talked about building up a deterrent based on rational reasoning...

Rational reasoning will tell you that Russia has absolutely nothing to want in Europe and does not wish or plan to expand, both territorially and politically, into it at all. But it's truly Russia's fault that there now exists a reason for believing otherwise, I agree.

And I have to add, wars are the best way to ensure peace and friendship while both sides recover. So the best way to guarantee peace with no possibilities of war in Belgium for the near future is having a meatgrinder somewhere in Belarus or Kazakhstan with all the NATO participating. So far, everything's been going towards it.

Hehe, Knit, maybe you should brush up on Central European history: 1815, 1871, 1918... The only instance of friendship through meatgrinder is post-WWII Germany, and while I agree that this is probably the only way to lasting peace with Russia (as I've previously argued), I don't think that's what you meant.

In this case, in the grim darkness of the near future, there is only war.

@Jesuit: It is a proxy war.

[smjjames]

@Sheb: I completely agree with you there. Europe is growing paranoid due to Russia no longer being docile/peaceful/lawful/whatever term you want to use. Paranoia leads to wars.

If I understood him correctly, that was not his point at all: Paranoia is usually defined as unsubstantiated fear, and he talked about building up a deterrent based on rational reasoning...

Rational reasoning will tell you that Russia has absolutely nothing to want in Europe and does not wish or plan to expand, both territorially and politically, into it at all. But it's truly Russia's fault that there now exists a reason for believing otherwise, I agree.

What do you call Ukraine and Crimea then? If Russia has no wish or plan to expand, then why did Putin grab Crimea? Why not leave Ukraine alone (aside from Yanukushenko)?

[Owlbread]

Putin took Crimea because it's the most brazen thing he could have possibly done to show just how much Ukraine is Russia's bitch.

The unspoken rule of the 21st century is that, in Europe, one does not invade another's country and annex a part of it. By doing so, Russia has shown it doesn't play by our rules. Given the weakness of the United States right now and Europe's financial insecurities, fair play to them - it's as good a time for them to do it as any. I just wish all the dick-waving power and control nonsense would end.

[Fniff]

Putin took Crimea because it's the most brazen thing he could have possibly done to show just how much Ukraine is Russia's bitch.

I'm getting Daikatana vibes, for some reason.
If Putin is John Romero, and Crimea is his Daikatana, what would be Putin's version of Doom?

[Sergarr]

I think by using force to get what it wants in this continent and making Europe a dangerous place again for the first time since the early '90s, Russia is quite successfully bringing Europe back to its wretched level, stuck in the 20th century in a world of ultranationalism, irredentism, superpowers and lost glories. Lines have been crossed and mistakes have been made that cannot be undone. I don't think we'll ever go to war - we're just set back about 30 years in development by a country that's about 30 years behind the rest of us. Without this bollocks we could be on the path to unilateral disarmament and European integration with Russia.

Haha, you really believe that?

Unilateral disarmament? European integration? Oh wow.

This European Elysium is a dream impossible in the current world, and indeed in any future world, too. There would never be unilateral disarmament, and there would never be an integration of Russia into this fake heaven Europe, which can only exist on the tears of the whole world outside it.

It's about time you finally start feeling what the rest of the world experiences every day, and get those utopical notions of "unilateral disarmament" out of your head. You'll never get into your imaginary future, if you continue to think that "unilateral disarmament" is even possible.

[Knit tie]

Owlie, I completely agree with you up to the word "bitch," and completely disagree afterwards.

[smjjames]

Just because you don't want to join the EU doesn't mean you have to harass the baltic states and other former USSR sattelites.

[Owlbread]

Haha, you really believe that?

Unilateral disarmament? European integration? Oh wow.

This European Elysium is a dream impossible in the current world, and indeed in any future world, too. There would never be unilateral disarmament, and there would never be an integration of Russia into this fake heaven Europe, which can only exist on the tears of the whole world outside it.

It's about time you finally start feeling what the rest of the world experiences every day, and get those utopical notions of "unilateral disarmament" out of your head. You'll never get into your imaginary future, if you continue to think that "unilateral disarmament" is even possible.

Spoiler: You may think that's an argument, but if we reduce your post into logical standard-form (after removing rhetoric): (click to show/hide)

Premise 1: "Unilateral disarmament will never happen, neither will European integration with Russia"
Premise 2: "Unilateral disarmament will never happen, neither will European integration with Russia"
Premise 3: "Unilateral disarmament will never happen, neither will European integration with Russia"
Premise 4: "Unilateral disarmament will never happen, neither will European integration with Russia"

Conclusion: "Unilateral disarmament will never happen, neither will European integration with Russia"

If we reduce that further:

Premise 1: A
Premise 2: A
Premise 3: A
Premise 4: A

Given that all four premises are exactly the same, you're just asserting the same thing over and over. That's not an argument, that's an assertion repeated several times.

You see Sergarr, people like me have big, crazy dreams and ideas. They're no crazier than those held by people in history - e.g. that one day everyone would have a say in the running of a country, regardless of their race, creed, class, gender, sexual orientation etc. This now happens in my country. Another would be that Europe wouldn't be at each-others' throats anymore, fighting every decade over some thing or another. Due to the European Union that is now the case.

I accepted long ago that I'll never see the stuff I want to see in the world, but I want to at least work towards it so that someone may do some day. By asking me to stop dreaming of how things can be different and start thinking in your mindset you're asking me to stop being who I am, which I'm not going to do. I believe that the longer Europe remains on this path of unity and peace (not necessarily towards a single super-state, I just mean united through the loose ties we currently have) the closer we'll come to the situations enjoyed by Japan and Costa Rica, perhaps more realistically the one originally envisaged by Woodrow Wilson where every nation would only have as many troops as it needed to defend itself and so on.

[Knit tie]

I think that by now I should remind everybody that the default Russian mindset is that pursuing your dreams is inherently pointless and that you should settle for what you may reasonably or already have, instead.

[Owlbread]

I think that by now I should remind everybody that the default Russian mindset is that pursuing your dreams is inherently pointless and that you should settle for what you may reasonably or already have, instead.

I realise that I am not compatible with Russian culture/mindset in any way. If nobody in Russia actually pursued their dreams, however, we wouldn't have had the USSR and Russia would still be ruled by a Tsar. The greatest things that have ever happened to the Russian public happened because people followed their dreams, am I correct? Or because a leader, appointed due to his strength and character, made the right decision for them on their behalf?

[Sheb]

Well, until very recently, we were living that dream of not having states use force against each others within Europe, thank you very much.

[miljan]

Well, until very recently, we were living that dream of not having states use force against each others within Europe, thank you very much.

Maybe in last 14 years or so. But just to note, EU is not one country, hack they can still have war against each other, even nato countries fought among them self  before, so anything can happen and nothing is safe.

[Owlbread]

Well, until very recently, we were living that dream of not having states use force against each others within Europe, thank you very much.

Maybe in last 14 years or so. But just to note, EU is not one country, hack they can still have war against each other, even nato countries fought among them self  before, so anything can happen and nothing is safe.

In the same way that it's physically possible for a helicopter to fall through the roof of my house and crush me, it is physically possible for Britain to go to war with Luxembourg.

[Knit tie]

I think that by now I should remind everybody that the default Russian mindset is that pursuing your dreams is inherently pointless and that you should settle for what you may reasonably or already have, instead.

I realise that I am not compatible with Russian culture/mindset in any way. If nobody in Russia actually pursued their dreams, however, we wouldn't have had the USSR and Russia would still be ruled by a Tsar. The greatest things that have ever happened to the Russian public happened because people followed their dreams, am I correct? Or because a leader, appointed due to his strength and character, made the right decision for them on their behalf?

Wait, wait, wait, you honestly think that the gensek wasn't just another form of the Tsar? That's everything the revolution did - exchanged one tsar for another. And everything good that happened in the USSR happened due to those gensek tsars making right decisions and exhibiting benevolence.