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Author Topic: Not-So-Beginner Mafia 5: Mafia Victory  (Read 52818 times)

Scripten

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Re: Not-So-Beginner Mafia 5: Day 1: A Small Problem
« Reply #180 on: October 31, 2014, 06:55:10 pm »

No, I'm saying there's only so many things he could've done and what he did was the most likely for somebody trying to get a scumread lynched. If you'd like, I can make a nice little list of things he could've done with labels and stuff?

NQT admitted that he could have done more, so you can quit being condescending, thanks.

1. There was a thing that made me suspicious of him, but other things made me see him as towny, and the towniness outweighed the suspicion.

2. And yeah, you've already abandoned that NQT should've pushed harder for a Deathsword lynch and gotten that 1 last vote in the 2 hours he had.

1. Tell me these things.

2. Actually, I stopped pushing for NQT's lynch because he admitted that he could have done more himself, as I stated above.

Wait a minute... what case? Where have you responded to his accusations about your interactions with NQT & Persus? I've seen you asserting in Day 1 that Flabort is suspicious and that you have a case on him, but the only meaty things you've said about him are in response to the Day 1 reads thing- you know, which he said wasn't a big deal?

Any time I mentioned the reads "case" Flabort had on me, it was in response to it being brought up again. By Flabort or others. I was getting tired of hearing it.

My case on Flabort was that his answers were dodgy, his wording was oftentimes politicized and steeped in obtuse metaphors, and his actions didn't line up with a town mindset. Do you really think that going after people who extended the day for extending the day is pro-town? Do you think that tunneling another player for RL delays in their play looks like town behavior? Please, tell me all about my line of thinking since you seem to know it so well.

By the way, Cheetar, care to explain why you're buddying NQT so hard while you're at it? Assuming he's town, do you think that sheeping his wagon on day 1 and chainsaw defending him later on is going to net you town cred?
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Cheeetar

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Re: Not-So-Beginner Mafia 5: Day 1: A Small Problem
« Reply #181 on: October 31, 2014, 07:12:04 pm »

No, I'm saying there's only so many things he could've done and what he did was the most likely for somebody trying to get a scumread lynched. If you'd like, I can make a nice little list of things he could've done with labels and stuff?

NQT admitted that he could have done more, so you can quit being condescending, thanks.

I mean specifically in response to your 'it wasn't towny of him to have voted the way he did' - I'm strictly speaking in terms of who he could've voted for at the time, and who he chose to vote for was most towny to me. You were arguing earlier that it wasn't towny to have voted the way he did.

1. There was a thing that made me suspicious of him, but other things made me see him as towny, and the towniness outweighed the suspicion.

2. And yeah, you've already abandoned that NQT should've pushed harder for a Deathsword lynch and gotten that 1 last vote in the 2 hours he had.

1. Tell me these things.

2. Actually, I stopped pushing for NQT's lynch because he admitted that he could have done more himself, as I stated above.

1. He was pushing for a lynch on somebody other than Flabort, and did not poke me about me not voting for Flabort despite finding him scummy. If Flabort flipped scum, this would've been hugely suspicious. Flabort didn't!

2.
Scripten
I'm sorry but I still don't see how any of this amounts to a case. My reads change as I reassess evidence. How are these speculations of yours any different from WIFOM?

Unvote NQT
Vote Deathsword


Actually... that's a fair enough point for now. I hadn't really thought about the time stamps that much, since I remembered the day passing very slowly for me.
Yeah, I don't see that as you dropping your argument because NQT admitted he played badly, or anything of the sort. I see you dropping your argument because it was bad. (Do note: Quotes are obviously snipped a bit.)

Wait a minute... what case? Where have you responded to his accusations about your interactions with NQT & Persus? I've seen you asserting in Day 1 that Flabort is suspicious and that you have a case on him, but the only meaty things you've said about him are in response to the Day 1 reads thing- you know, which he said wasn't a big deal?

Any time I mentioned the reads "case" Flabort had on me, it was in response to it being brought up again. By Flabort or others. I was getting tired of hearing it.

My case on Flabort was that his answers were dodgy, his wording was oftentimes politicized and steeped in obtuse metaphors, and his actions didn't line up with a town mindset. Do you really think that going after people who extended the day for extending the day is pro-town? Do you think that tunneling another player for RL delays in their play looks like town behavior? Please, tell me all about my line of thinking since you seem to know it so well.

By the way, Cheetar, care to explain why you're buddying NQT so hard while you're at it? Assuming he's town, do you think that sheeping his wagon on day 1 and chainsaw defending him later on is going to net you town cred?

You're not voting for him, so you can hardly claim that I'm doing it now, but thanks for saying that calling you out on your terrible argument (that you've dropped) is chainsaw defending.

Note: He didn't.
I understand how easy it is to construe his post as saying that (I made that mistake) but looking back, well, he pretty clearly isn't. He's just speaking poorly, but that doesn't make his suspicions any less valid.
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I've played some mafia.

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Varee

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Re: Not-So-Beginner Mafia 5: Day 2: Less Deaths Than Expected
« Reply #182 on: October 31, 2014, 07:33:56 pm »

@NQT : my read on flabort was : Generally against most player so everyone is generally against him. Did pretty good hunting and pushing though. Null
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Scripten

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Re: Not-So-Beginner Mafia 5: Day 1: A Small Problem
« Reply #183 on: October 31, 2014, 07:35:21 pm »

I mean specifically in response to your 'it wasn't towny of him to have voted the way he did' - I'm strictly speaking in terms of who he could've voted for at the time, and who he chose to vote for was most towny to me. You were arguing earlier that it wasn't towny to have voted the way he did.

You did not say that. You said that "there's only so many things he could have done." I replied that even NQT admits he could have done more. Tell me how these are not related.

1. He was pushing for a lynch on somebody other than Flabort, and did not poke me about me not voting for Flabort despite finding him scummy. If Flabort flipped scum, this would've been hugely suspicious. Flabort didn't!

Flabort's lynch was all but guaranteed. Scum-NQT would have found it just as easy to avoid poking you about that inconsistency. This is not alignment indicative in the slightest.

2. Yeah, I don't see that as you dropping your argument because NQT admitted he played badly, or anything of the sort. I see you dropping your argument because it was bad. (Do note: Quotes are obviously snipped a bit.)

Except that what I said was that the time stamps and the fact that NQT said "I should have pushed stronger on the people voting Flabort." were what convinced me to unvote him.

You're not voting for him, so you can hardly claim that I'm doing it now, but thanks for saying that calling you out on your terrible argument (that you've dropped) is chainsaw defending.

Actually, my argument was just fine. Maybe you'd prefer it if no town scumhunted at all?

Note: He didn't.
I understand how easy it is to construe his post as saying that (I made that mistake) but looking back, well, he pretty clearly isn't. He's just speaking poorly, but that doesn't make his suspicions any less valid.

Then what WERE his suspicions? That I was pushing NQT to talk about current events in the thread? Please.
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Cheeetar

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Re: Not-So-Beginner Mafia 5: Day 1: A Small Problem
« Reply #184 on: October 31, 2014, 07:45:19 pm »

I mean specifically in response to your 'it wasn't towny of him to have voted the way he did' - I'm strictly speaking in terms of who he could've voted for at the time, and who he chose to vote for was most towny to me. You were arguing earlier that it wasn't towny to have voted the way he did.

You did not say that. You said that "there's only so many things he could have done." I replied that even NQT admits he could have done more. Tell me how these are not related.

Fair enough. I didn't accurately convey what I intended to.

1. He was pushing for a lynch on somebody other than Flabort, and did not poke me about me not voting for Flabort despite finding him scummy. If Flabort flipped scum, this would've been hugely suspicious. Flabort didn't!

Flabort's lynch was all but guaranteed. Scum-NQT would have found it just as easy to avoid poking you about that inconsistency. This is not alignment indicative in the slightest.

It was 3-4. You were online at the time and posting. You could've turned the lynch around by changing your vote. Flabort's lynch was not 'all but guaranteed'.

2. Yeah, I don't see that as you dropping your argument because NQT admitted he played badly, or anything of the sort. I see you dropping your argument because it was bad. (Do note: Quotes are obviously snipped a bit.)

Except that what I said was that the time stamps and the fact that NQT said "I should have pushed stronger on the people voting Flabort." were what convinced me to unvote him.

You're not voting for him, so you can hardly claim that I'm doing it now, but thanks for saying that calling you out on your terrible argument (that you've dropped) is chainsaw defending.

Actually, my argument was just fine. Maybe you'd prefer it if no town scumhunted at all?

Your argument was not a strong one at all. That you dropped it so quickly shows through.

I'm sorry but I still don't see how any of this amounts to a case.

Actually... that's a fair enough point for now.

Would you prefer it if no town scumhunted, seeing as you want me to quit questioning you?

Note: He didn't.
I understand how easy it is to construe his post as saying that (I made that mistake) but looking back, well, he pretty clearly isn't. He's just speaking poorly, but that doesn't make his suspicions any less valid.

Then what WERE his suspicions? That I was pushing NQT to talk about current events in the thread? Please.
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I've played some mafia.

Most of the time when someone is described as politically correct they are simply correct.

Cheeetar

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Re: Not-So-Beginner Mafia 5: Day 2: Less Deaths Than Expected
« Reply #185 on: October 31, 2014, 07:45:52 pm »

Bleh. I hit post earlier than intended- meant to preview to see if I'd screwed up tags or not. I'll finish it in another post, bear with me.
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I've played some mafia.

Most of the time when someone is described as politically correct they are simply correct.

Cheeetar

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Re: Not-So-Beginner Mafia 5: Day 2: Less Deaths Than Expected
« Reply #186 on: October 31, 2014, 07:52:49 pm »


Those were his suspicions! Would you like to answer those, instead of continually going on about your Day 1 reads?
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I've played some mafia.

Most of the time when someone is described as politically correct they are simply correct.

Scripten

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Re: Not-So-Beginner Mafia 5: Day 2: Less Deaths Than Expected
« Reply #187 on: October 31, 2014, 08:12:35 pm »

It was 3-4. You were online at the time and posting. You could've turned the lynch around by changing your vote. Flabort's lynch was not 'all but guaranteed'.

Did you miss the part where I THOUGHT HE WAS SCUM AND NQT DIDN'T? Do you realize that you're now literally trying to push the same case on me that you found me scummy for pushing on NQT? (Except mine was based on reality.)

Your argument was not a strong one at all. That you dropped it so quickly shows through.

Was strong enough for you to push on me, apparently. Not so scummy when you do it, though, right?

Those were his suspicions! Would you like to answer those, instead of continually going on about your Day 1 reads?

...

........

Are you serious? Are you seriously saying that his case on me was anything but fluff? Jesus. Alright, fine, I'll play this game. I'll go ahead and distill the posts you quoted into points.

Quote
1. Scripten was awfully "hands off" during my/persus's conflict
2. I got no reason to suspect him other than gut feeling, honestly.
3. I feel like he was railroading NQT into Persus, and possibly me too.
4. I'm not really sure, but there definitely seems to be some connection between him and Persus in some way.
5. I have his attention, this might not be good for me.
6. Long replies get attention.
7. Persus and I seem to be Scripten's Pre-game targets, despite saying "I don't do these"

1. Baseless and unsubstantiated. I did not butt into their argument, true, but I engaged with them about their interaction.
2. Not actually a suspicion, but important, since you tried to discredit me with a similar quote.
3. Already explained this SO many times.
4. And? Vague, unsubstantiated, and just weird.
5. Vague again. How is this a worthwhile contribution to the discussion?
6. Fluff.
7. Pure speculation and absolutely unsubstantiated just like the rest of his case on me.

By the way, if my "day one reads" are mentioned again, I'm going to lose my mind. The ONLY times I've said anything about them at all has been when replying to people talking to me about them.
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Cheeetar

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Re: Not-So-Beginner Mafia 5: Day 2: Less Deaths Than Expected
« Reply #188 on: October 31, 2014, 08:22:02 pm »

By the way, if my "day one reads" are mentioned again, I'm going to lose my mind. The ONLY times I've said anything about them at all has been when replying to people talking to me about them.

It's obscenely hot where I live and I am going to relax and play video games shortly so I will respond to the rest of your post later, but seriously:

What was it that specifically made you feel confident about leaving your vote on Flabort? You seem fairly unsure here.

That was fairly early in the day. I reassessed the play before I took a short leave of absence and, when I returned, I found myself happy with where my vote was.

Specifically, it was here where my scum read got serious. That whole "you don't put much stock in day one reads but you totally make them when you're asked to so you're hypocrite scum" just felt like reaching. He tried to make me question my reads (which felt disingenuous) and made a big deal out of extending.

See here.

You have been using it to escape Flabort's suspicion of you by making it out to be less than it was. If you didn't want it to be a big deal, you shouldn't've pretended that's all Flabort's argument was when it clearly wasn't. Your mention of them there was unprompted- I said nothing about the 'day 1 reads' thing, I merely asked why you were so confident that Flabort was the right pick for a day 1 lynch.
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I've played some mafia.

Most of the time when someone is described as politically correct they are simply correct.

notquitethere

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Re: Not-So-Beginner Mafia 5: Day 2: Less Deaths Than Expected
« Reply #189 on: October 31, 2014, 08:48:21 pm »

I'm about to go to bed and there's more I'd like to respond to/develop. But quickly:

Cheetah, Scripten, try not to get bogged down just arguing the same ground with one another. Consider spending a bit of that time and energy on something a bit more productive, like looking over players interactions. Even if we can't induce everyone else to post as frequently as we'd like, we can at least look at what they already have said, and perhaps more importantly, who they have or have not spoken to (and in what way).
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TheDarkStar

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Re: Not-So-Beginner Mafia 5: Day 2: Less Deaths Than Expected
« Reply #190 on: October 31, 2014, 09:56:26 pm »

Here's my analysis of Day 1 along with the flip information. This ignores Day 2 stuff; that will come later.

Starting with people who voted to lynch flabort:

Persus13:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Scripten:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Worldmaster:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Next, people who wanted to lynch DS:

Varee:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
notquitethere:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Cheeetar:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

flabort:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Deathsword:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

As I said, these do not reflect Day 2 events.
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it happened it happened it happen im so hyped to actually get attacked now

Jack A T

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Re: Not-So-Beginner Mafia 5: Day 2: Less Deaths Than Expected
« Reply #191 on: November 01, 2014, 12:19:58 am »

Votecount:
*TheDarkStar - Persus13 (1)
*Scripten - Cheeetar, TheDarkStar (2)
*Cheeetar - (0)
*notquitethere - (0)
*Varee - Worldmaster27 (1)
*Persus13 - (0)
*Worldmaster27 - (0)
*Deathsword - Varee, notquitethere, Scripten (3)
Not voting: Deathsword

Extension requests: 0/3
Shorten requests: 0/5

Day 2 ends at 9:30 PM PST, Monday, November 3rd.
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YOU TRAITOROUS SWINE.
Screw you, Jack.

Cheeetar

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Re: Not-So-Beginner Mafia 5: Day 2: Less Deaths Than Expected
« Reply #192 on: November 01, 2014, 01:36:05 am »

Spoiler: Scripten (click to show/hide)

Cheeetar: He voted for DS a few posts after explaining why voting for DS was bad. Cheeetar, can you explain a bit more why you voted for DS?

I saw it as a choice between losing Flabort and losing Deathsword. I don't generally analyse or look upon Mafia in the same way that NQT does - his approach is a lot more sophisticated - and his explanation made sense in terms of most information gained for a Day 1 lynch. I changed my mind.

TheDarkStar:

<Flabort suspects Varee, Scripten & Persus, mentions how they all extended, asks them some questions>

Flabort, your accusations make no sense here. You suspect the three people who extended, when that's against the interests of scum. Scum would let the day end without any real suspects. Why do you think that these people are suspicious other than the reason you listed here?

4. flabort: Slight scum lean because of his ridiculous reasons for voting. Currently arguing with Persus; I'm not going to comment much on that until it settles.

What did you think of Flabort's later explanations of why he found those people suspicious?
As an aside: Extending is not strictly/always a towny thing.
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I've played some mafia.

Most of the time when someone is described as politically correct they are simply correct.

Scripten

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Re: Not-So-Beginner Mafia 5: Day 2: Less Deaths Than Expected
« Reply #193 on: November 01, 2014, 10:59:15 am »

Okay, slept on this and have had time to think it over. Apologies to you, Cheetar, for losing my cool. It's been a rough week IRL.

I'm not blaming you for not changing your vote- merely pointing out that it was not inevitable for Flabort to have been lynched at the time. There was sufficient time for a change of minds (that did not occur.)

The changing of minds did not occur because there was no real reason that I (or we, if we are to assume) could see at the time to switch votes. My case was built on the same foundation, that there was enough time for NQT to make a better case for why we shouldn't lynch Flabort. When he posted his explanations for not doing so, however, I decided that they satisfied me.

Not sure what you mean. Sorry.

I explained in response to the previous quote. You were using the exact same foundation to build on your case on me that I had used to begin my case on NQT. However, you were also saying that me building that case was scummy and, it appeared, working from the assumption that I didn't want Flabort lynched, which is untrue for me.

It's like you're blaming me for not sheeping NQT when NQT has said himself that he hadn't pushed his case hard enough.

Thank you for addressing some of Flabort's concerns. As they were Flabort's, I can't exactly do much to argue them now that you've answered them- I just wanted you to at least respond to them.

I'll be honest here. I didn't really see any of that as valid enough to respond to. The whole case reeked of having been fabricated by scum. In hindsight, it was not, but there was no way for me to know that at the time.



Also, TheDarkStar has legit made me lose my mind. I never said I didn't like posting Day 1 reads. I said that they are often wrong and are not as useful as later reads, but they can move the game state forward, so they are pro-town in general. Can't really respond to anything else in there since none of it has anything to do with the current day. (What's with the stalling?)
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TheDarkStar

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Re: Not-So-Beginner Mafia 5: Day 2: Less Deaths Than Expected
« Reply #194 on: November 01, 2014, 01:10:22 pm »

Also, TheDarkStar has legit made me lose my mind. I never said I didn't like posting Day 1 reads. I said that they are often wrong and are not as useful as later reads, but they can move the game state forward, so they are pro-town in general. Can't really respond to anything else in there since none of it has anything to do with the current day. (What's with the stalling?)

You noted that you did not like Day 1 reads, but you saw that they were necessary. That's not my main point, though. Your play yesterday was scummy, and I want you to answer some questions about your lynch choice. It might be about a different day, but how does that make the events of Day 1 less important?
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Don't die; it's bad for your health!

it happened it happened it happen im so hyped to actually get attacked now
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