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[Scripten]

No, I'm saying there's only so many things he could've done and what he did was the most likely for somebody trying to get a scumread lynched. If you'd like, I can make a nice little list of things he could've done with labels and stuff?

NQT admitted that he could have done more, so you can quit being condescending, thanks.

1. There was a thing that made me suspicious of him, but other things made me see him as towny, and the towniness outweighed the suspicion.

2. And yeah, you've already abandoned that NQT should've pushed harder for a Deathsword lynch and gotten that 1 last vote in the 2 hours he had.

1. Tell me these things.

2. Actually, I stopped pushing for NQT's lynch because he admitted that he could have done more himself, as I stated above.

Wait a minute... what case? Where have you responded to his accusations about your interactions with NQT & Persus? I've seen you asserting in Day 1 that Flabort is suspicious and that you have a case on him, but the only meaty things you've said about him are in response to the Day 1 reads thing- you know, which he said wasn't a big deal?

Any time I mentioned the reads "case" Flabort had on me, it was in response to it being brought up again. By Flabort or others. I was getting tired of hearing it.

My case on Flabort was that his answers were dodgy, his wording was oftentimes politicized and steeped in obtuse metaphors, and his actions didn't line up with a town mindset. Do you really think that going after people who extended the day for extending the day is pro-town? Do you think that tunneling another player for RL delays in their play looks like town behavior? Please, tell me all about my line of thinking since you seem to know it so well.

By the way, Cheetar, care to explain why you're buddying NQT so hard while you're at it? Assuming he's town, do you think that sheeping his wagon on day 1 and chainsaw defending him later on is going to net you town cred?

[Cheeetar]

No, I'm saying there's only so many things he could've done and what he did was the most likely for somebody trying to get a scumread lynched. If you'd like, I can make a nice little list of things he could've done with labels and stuff?

NQT admitted that he could have done more, so you can quit being condescending, thanks.

I mean specifically in response to your 'it wasn't towny of him to have voted the way he did' - I'm strictly speaking in terms of who he could've voted for at the time, and who he chose to vote for was most towny to me. You were arguing earlier that it wasn't towny to have voted the way he did.

1. There was a thing that made me suspicious of him, but other things made me see him as towny, and the towniness outweighed the suspicion.

2. And yeah, you've already abandoned that NQT should've pushed harder for a Deathsword lynch and gotten that 1 last vote in the 2 hours he had.

1. Tell me these things.

2. Actually, I stopped pushing for NQT's lynch because he admitted that he could have done more himself, as I stated above.

1. He was pushing for a lynch on somebody other than Flabort, and did not poke me about me not voting for Flabort despite finding him scummy. If Flabort flipped scum, this would've been hugely suspicious. Flabort didn't!

2.

Scripten
I'm sorry but I still don't see how any of this amounts to a case. My reads change as I reassess evidence. How are these speculations of yours any different from WIFOM?

Unvote NQT
Vote Deathsword

Actually... that's a fair enough point for now. I hadn't really thought about the time stamps that much, since I remembered the day passing very slowly for me.

Yeah, I don't see that as you dropping your argument because NQT admitted he played badly, or anything of the sort. I see you dropping your argument because it was bad. (Do note: Quotes are obviously snipped a bit.)

Wait a minute... what case? Where have you responded to his accusations about your interactions with NQT & Persus? I've seen you asserting in Day 1 that Flabort is suspicious and that you have a case on him, but the only meaty things you've said about him are in response to the Day 1 reads thing- you know, which he said wasn't a big deal?

Any time I mentioned the reads "case" Flabort had on me, it was in response to it being brought up again. By Flabort or others. I was getting tired of hearing it.

My case on Flabort was that his answers were dodgy, his wording was oftentimes politicized and steeped in obtuse metaphors, and his actions didn't line up with a town mindset. Do you really think that going after people who extended the day for extending the day is pro-town? Do you think that tunneling another player for RL delays in their play looks like town behavior? Please, tell me all about my line of thinking since you seem to know it so well.

By the way, Cheetar, care to explain why you're buddying NQT so hard while you're at it? Assuming he's town, do you think that sheeping his wagon on day 1 and chainsaw defending him later on is going to net you town cred?

You're not voting for him, so you can hardly claim that I'm doing it now, but thanks for saying that calling you out on your terrible argument (that you've dropped) is chainsaw defending.

Spoiler: Flabort 'saying extending is scummy' (click to show/hide)

I'm just saying it's somewhat hypocritical, scripten, to say that day 1 reads are nigh useless, and then be the first to post day 1 reads (the earlier ones were described as play styles, and not reads, so they don't count).
Among the other things I expect from other players, it's consistency.

Varee, Scripten, Persus Oh how Ironic that my top three suspects at the moment were the ones who extended. I expect you guys to actually make use of this extension to it's full potential, so my vote will be on whichever one of you was the least recent one to post. Currently, that's... Persus. As soon as you post, of course, this means my vote will move to scripten or varee.
To kick of the conversation, what is your three's reaction to this decision?
Next, which of you three is most scummy? least scummy?
Next, which player who is NOT one of you three is most scummy? least scummy?

Deathsword You said you would post by now, "in a few hours" from your last post. Well, where is your post?

Note: He didn't.
I understand how easy it is to construe his post as saying that (I made that mistake) but looking back, well, he pretty clearly isn't. He's just speaking poorly, but that doesn't make his suspicions any less valid.

[Varee]

@NQT : my read on flabort was : Generally against most player so everyone is generally against him. Did pretty good hunting and pushing though. Null

[Scripten]

I mean specifically in response to your 'it wasn't towny of him to have voted the way he did' - I'm strictly speaking in terms of who he could've voted for at the time, and who he chose to vote for was most towny to me. You were arguing earlier that it wasn't towny to have voted the way he did.

You did not say that. You said that "there's only so many things he could have done." I replied that even NQT admits he could have done more. Tell me how these are not related.

1. He was pushing for a lynch on somebody other than Flabort, and did not poke me about me not voting for Flabort despite finding him scummy. If Flabort flipped scum, this would've been hugely suspicious. Flabort didn't!

Flabort's lynch was all but guaranteed. Scum-NQT would have found it just as easy to avoid poking you about that inconsistency. This is not alignment indicative in the slightest.

2. Yeah, I don't see that as you dropping your argument because NQT admitted he played badly, or anything of the sort. I see you dropping your argument because it was bad. (Do note: Quotes are obviously snipped a bit.)

Except that what I said was that the time stamps and the fact that NQT said "I should have pushed stronger on the people voting Flabort." were what convinced me to unvote him.

You're not voting for him, so you can hardly claim that I'm doing it now, but thanks for saying that calling you out on your terrible argument (that you've dropped) is chainsaw defending.

Actually, my argument was just fine. Maybe you'd prefer it if no town scumhunted at all?

Spoiler: Flabort 'saying extending is scummy' (click to show/hide)

Varee, Scripten, Persus Oh how Ironic that my top three suspects at the moment were the ones who extended. I expect you guys to actually make use of this extension to it's full potential, so my vote will be on whichever one of you was the least recent one to post. Currently, that's... Persus. As soon as you post, of course, this means my vote will move to scripten or varee.
To kick of the conversation, what is your three's reaction to this decision?
Next, which of you three is most scummy? least scummy?
Next, which player who is NOT one of you three is most scummy? least scummy?

Note: He didn't.
I understand how easy it is to construe his post as saying that (I made that mistake) but looking back, well, he pretty clearly isn't. He's just speaking poorly, but that doesn't make his suspicions any less valid.

Then what WERE his suspicions? That I was pushing NQT to talk about current events in the thread? Please.

[Cheeetar]

I mean specifically in response to your 'it wasn't towny of him to have voted the way he did' - I'm strictly speaking in terms of who he could've voted for at the time, and who he chose to vote for was most towny to me. You were arguing earlier that it wasn't towny to have voted the way he did.

You did not say that. You said that "there's only so many things he could have done." I replied that even NQT admits he could have done more. Tell me how these are not related.

Fair enough. I didn't accurately convey what I intended to.

1. He was pushing for a lynch on somebody other than Flabort, and did not poke me about me not voting for Flabort despite finding him scummy. If Flabort flipped scum, this would've been hugely suspicious. Flabort didn't!

Flabort's lynch was all but guaranteed. Scum-NQT would have found it just as easy to avoid poking you about that inconsistency. This is not alignment indicative in the slightest.

It was 3-4. You were online at the time and posting. You could've turned the lynch around by changing your vote. Flabort's lynch was not 'all but guaranteed'.

2. Yeah, I don't see that as you dropping your argument because NQT admitted he played badly, or anything of the sort. I see you dropping your argument because it was bad. (Do note: Quotes are obviously snipped a bit.)

Except that what I said was that the time stamps and the fact that NQT said "I should have pushed stronger on the people voting Flabort." were what convinced me to unvote him.

You're not voting for him, so you can hardly claim that I'm doing it now, but thanks for saying that calling you out on your terrible argument (that you've dropped) is chainsaw defending.

Actually, my argument was just fine. Maybe you'd prefer it if no town scumhunted at all?

Your argument was not a strong one at all. That you dropped it so quickly shows through.

I'm sorry but I still don't see how any of this amounts to a case.

Actually... that's a fair enough point for now.

Would you prefer it if no town scumhunted, seeing as you want me to quit questioning you?

Spoiler: Flabort 'saying extending is scummy' (click to show/hide)

Varee, Scripten, Persus Oh how Ironic that my top three suspects at the moment were the ones who extended. I expect you guys to actually make use of this extension to it's full potential, so my vote will be on whichever one of you was the least recent one to post. Currently, that's... Persus. As soon as you post, of course, this means my vote will move to scripten or varee.
To kick of the conversation, what is your three's reaction to this decision?
Next, which of you three is most scummy? least scummy?
Next, which player who is NOT one of you three is most scummy? least scummy?

Note: He didn't.
I understand how easy it is to construe his post as saying that (I made that mistake) but looking back, well, he pretty clearly isn't. He's just speaking poorly, but that doesn't make his suspicions any less valid.

Then what WERE his suspicions? That I was pushing NQT to talk about current events in the thread? Please.

[Cheeetar]

Bleh. I hit post earlier than intended- meant to preview to see if I'd screwed up tags or not. I'll finish it in another post, bear with me.

[Cheeetar]

Spoiler: Flabort's arguments against Scripten, as best I can see. (click to show/hide)

Scripten was awfully "hands off" during my/persus's conflict, but besides that... well, I got no reason to suspect him other than gut feeling, honestly. I do happen to be the most suspicious member of Clifton's crew, right? Well, basically, I feel like he's not got much going for him as town; he hasn't done anything overtly scummy, even taking into account that reads thing, but I feel like he was railroading NQT into Persus, and possibly me too. But then again, there was defending Persus by basically asking to take my vote, so...? I'm not really sure, but there definitely seems to be some connection between him and Persus in some way.

Scripten Doesn't put much value into Day 1 reads, yet forms them anyways. I guess this isn't bad. Earlier points above, as well. Directing people at either me or Persus for whatever reason. Probably scum.

Flabort: Could you please provide an example of where Scripten might be trying to direct people at either you or Persus? I hadn't noticed any of that when I read back through, though I may have missed something.

Sure^{[Note 1]}. I'm pretty sure he's at least got his attention on me by now^{[Note 2]}, and has made at least one long reply to Persus^{[Note 3]}. There's also his first vote^{[Note 4]} on Persus while speaking to me.

<sub>Click the citation links to see individual posts.
1. Directing NQT to tunnel on either Persus or I.
2. I have his attention, this might not be good for me.
3. Long replies get attention.
4. Persus and I seem to be Scripten's Pre-game targets, despite saying "I don't do these".</sub>

Those were his suspicions! Would you like to answer those, instead of continually going on about your Day 1 reads?

[Scripten]

It was 3-4. You were online at the time and posting. You could've turned the lynch around by changing your vote. Flabort's lynch was not 'all but guaranteed'.

Did you miss the part where I THOUGHT HE WAS SCUM AND NQT DIDN'T? Do you realize that you're now literally trying to push the same case on me that you found me scummy for pushing on NQT? (Except mine was based on reality.)

Your argument was not a strong one at all. That you dropped it so quickly shows through.

Was strong enough for you to push on me, apparently. Not so scummy when you do it, though, right?

Those were his suspicions! Would you like to answer those, instead of continually going on about your Day 1 reads?

...

........

Are you serious? Are you seriously saying that his case on me was anything but fluff? Jesus. Alright, fine, I'll play this game. I'll go ahead and distill the posts you quoted into points.

1. Scripten was awfully "hands off" during my/persus's conflict
2. I got no reason to suspect him other than gut feeling, honestly.
3. I feel like he was railroading NQT into Persus, and possibly me too.
4. I'm not really sure, but there definitely seems to be some connection between him and Persus in some way.
5. I have his attention, this might not be good for me.
6. Long replies get attention.
7. Persus and I seem to be Scripten's Pre-game targets, despite saying "I don't do these"

1. Baseless and unsubstantiated. I did not butt into their argument, true, but I engaged with them about their interaction.
2. Not actually a suspicion, but important, since you tried to discredit me with a similar quote.
3. Already explained this SO many times.
4. And? Vague, unsubstantiated, and just weird.
5. Vague again. How is this a worthwhile contribution to the discussion?
6. Fluff.
7. Pure speculation and absolutely unsubstantiated just like the rest of his case on me.

By the way, if my "day one reads" are mentioned again, I'm going to lose my mind. The ONLY times I've said anything about them at all has been when replying to people talking to me about them.

[Cheeetar]

By the way, if my "day one reads" are mentioned again, I'm going to lose my mind. The ONLY times I've said anything about them at all has been when replying to people talking to me about them.

It's obscenely hot where I live and I am going to relax and play video games shortly so I will respond to the rest of your post later, but seriously:

What was it that specifically made you feel confident about leaving your vote on Flabort? You seem fairly unsure here.

That was fairly early in the day. I reassessed the play before I took a short leave of absence and, when I returned, I found myself happy with where my vote was.

Specifically, it was here where my scum read got serious. That whole "you don't put much stock in day one reads but you totally make them when you're asked to so you're hypocrite scum" just felt like reaching. He tried to make me question my reads (which felt disingenuous) and made a big deal out of extending.

See here.

You have been using it to escape Flabort's suspicion of you by making it out to be less than it was. If you didn't want it to be a big deal, you shouldn't've pretended that's all Flabort's argument was when it clearly wasn't. Your mention of them there was unprompted- I said nothing about the 'day 1 reads' thing, I merely asked why you were so confident that Flabort was the right pick for a day 1 lynch.

[notquitethere]

I'm about to go to bed and there's more I'd like to respond to/develop. But quickly:

Cheetah, Scripten, try not to get bogged down just arguing the same ground with one another. Consider spending a bit of that time and energy on something a bit more productive, like looking over players interactions. Even if we can't induce everyone else to post as frequently as we'd like, we can at least look at what they already have said, and perhaps more importantly, who they have or have not spoken to (and in what way).

[TheDarkStar]

Here's my analysis of Day 1 along with the flip information. This ignores Day 2 stuff; that will come later.

Starting with people who voted to lynch flabort:

Persus13:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Scum read only flabort, and had a minor scum lean on DS. He scumhunted flabort a lot. Probably the most town of these three; I can't find any way that he's scummy.

Scripten:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Did not like posting early reads. He plays fairly defensively.

In this post, he says that flabort and Persus are probably doing town vs. town scumhunting and so neither is probably scum. However, he then quietly turns his RVS vote into a real one. Scripten, what's your justification for lynching flabort? This isn't the first time that this has come up, either, but he avoided actually explaining why he was voting last time:

Scripten
This:

I see... so why are you still voting Persus? Your initial vote on him was just asking where he'd been.

I'm... not? My vote is on Flabort, and the only reason I waited was to see where the Persus13/Flabort exchange went and see what Flabort did afterwards. I'm now reasonably sure (for day one) that my vote is in a good place for right now.

Worldmaster:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Not that scummy. He's not that active, but he does a bit of scumhunting. Also, there's this post, where he says that he suspects Varee regardless of what flabort flips:

WorldMaster who would you most likely vote on Day 2 if Flabort flips town. What if he flips scum?

Based on how it is now? For flipping town, I'd probably vote Varee, who I find second most scummy, but I'd rather scumhunt before voting. For flipping scum, I would likely shift my focus to Varee or Deathsword who seem to be the most impartial to flabort.

I find it interesting that you don't seem to care what his flip was; you would find roughly the same people scummy either way. Why did flabort's potential flip not affect what you though of other people?

I'll have more to say once I read Day 2.

Next, people who wanted to lynch DS:

Varee:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This post is interesting (it's directed to DS, by the way):

You seem to be missing a lot of stuff..... I accept that it is partially my fault as my post was not the easiest to follow so let me ask you a new question, Do you think trying to lynch flabort is a scum move? I mean he is one of the more experience player so getting rid of him benefit the scum unless he is a scum himself rigt?

He's indirectly calling anyone voting for flabort scum here. He's technically asking a question, but it's rhetorical in nature. Why did you think that it was more scummy to lynch an experienced player that seems scummy that to let him live?

Also this one:

Varee: What is the aim of saying this- to deflect attention from yourself? Do you think Deathsword asking you questions is scummy behaviour?

What i meant is Deathsword is not answering any question except pushin on me, I veiw this as he is avoiding answering question while stay realatively active with his post. If he got nothing to hide then he should answer more question and ask less.

Can you make your posts a bit clearer? I can't quite tell what you were trying to say in the last one.

Varee, that post made next to no sense to me? Can you please be a little more clear when posting? Sorry, it's just really hard to understand you at times. >.>

I was rather busy during the weekend so i rush out the post. I will just list out the point then to keep it clean.

• I didnt understand the way flabort and NQT are talking to each other(and still dont)
• I got a few possiblities on why they might be doing that(secret code, cross  checking)
• I stated that I didnt answer the scum tell question because I feel that by answering it, it will make spoting them harder.
• I dont think the way NQT and flabort is acting is consider buddying, am not sure what I should call it but without explaination of why they are doing it, it is hard to decide what the exchanges mean.

Here, he's saying that he thinks NQT and flabort are the scumteam because they are making large posts at each other. Varee, why did you think that they were scummy for their argument?

notquitethere:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Makes long analytical posts. NQT, why haven't you done any serious scumhunting? You voted for DS, but that started out as a pressure vote and just never got moved. You've barely pressured people for their play as far as I can tell. There are questions asked, but no scumhunting.

Cheeetar:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

He voted for DS a few posts after explaining why voting for DS was bad. Cheeetar, can you explain a bit more why you voted for DS?

And finally, people who voted for Varee:

flabort:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Dead men tell no tales, indeed. His voting for Varee was odd, though; I'm not sure how helpful it is. Maybe the scum got him lynched because he found one of the real scum scummy? However, there were legitimate reasons to lynch him.

Deathsword:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Reaction-voted Varee and then became less active. Deathsword, can you restate your reasons for voting varee?

As I said, these do not reflect Day 2 events.

[Jack A T]

Votecount:
*TheDarkStar - Persus13 (1)
*Scripten - Cheeetar, TheDarkStar (2)
*Cheeetar - (0)
*notquitethere - (0)
*Varee - Worldmaster27 (1)
*Persus13 - (0)
*Worldmaster27 - (0)
*Deathsword - Varee, notquitethere, Scripten (3)
Not voting: Deathsword

Extension requests: 0/3
Shorten requests: 0/5

Day 2 ends at 9:30 PM PST, Monday, November 3rd.

[Cheeetar]

Spoiler: Scripten (click to show/hide)

It was 3-4. You were online at the time and posting. You could've turned the lynch around by changing your vote. Flabort's lynch was not 'all but guaranteed'.

Did you miss the part where I THOUGHT HE WAS SCUM AND NQT DIDN'T? Do you realize that you're now literally trying to push the same case on me that you found me scummy for pushing on NQT? (Except mine was based on reality.)

I'm not blaming you for not changing your vote- merely pointing out that it was not inevitable for Flabort to have been lynched at the time. There was sufficient time for a change of minds (that did not occur.)

Your argument was not a strong one at all. That you dropped it so quickly shows through.

Was strong enough for you to push on me, apparently. Not so scummy when you do it, though, right?

Not sure what you mean. Sorry.

Those were his suspicions! Would you like to answer those, instead of continually going on about your Day 1 reads?

...

........

Are you serious? Are you seriously saying that his case on me was anything but fluff? Jesus. Alright, fine, I'll play this game. I'll go ahead and distill the posts you quoted into points.

1. Scripten was awfully "hands off" during my/persus's conflict
2. I got no reason to suspect him other than gut feeling, honestly.
3. I feel like he was railroading NQT into Persus, and possibly me too.
4. I'm not really sure, but there definitely seems to be some connection between him and Persus in some way.
5. I have his attention, this might not be good for me.
6. Long replies get attention.
7. Persus and I seem to be Scripten's Pre-game targets, despite saying "I don't do these"

1. Baseless and unsubstantiated. I did not butt into their argument, true, but I engaged with them about their interaction.
2. Not actually a suspicion, but important, since you tried to discredit me with a similar quote.
3. Already explained this SO many times.
4. And? Vague, unsubstantiated, and just weird.
5. Vague again. How is this a worthwhile contribution to the discussion?
6. Fluff.
7. Pure speculation and absolutely unsubstantiated just like the rest of his case on me.

Thank you for addressing some of Flabort's concerns. As they were Flabort's, I can't exactly do much to argue them now that you've answered them- I just wanted you to at least respond to them.

Cheeetar: He voted for DS a few posts after explaining why voting for DS was bad. Cheeetar, can you explain a bit more why you voted for DS?

I saw it as a choice between losing Flabort and losing Deathsword. I don't generally analyse or look upon Mafia in the same way that NQT does - his approach is a lot more sophisticated - and his explanation made sense in terms of most information gained for a Day 1 lynch. I changed my mind.

TheDarkStar:

<Flabort suspects Varee, Scripten & Persus, mentions how they all extended, asks them some questions>

Flabort, your accusations make no sense here. You suspect the three people who extended, when that's against the interests of scum. Scum would let the day end without any real suspects. Why do you think that these people are suspicious other than the reason you listed here?

4. flabort: Slight scum lean because of his ridiculous reasons for voting. Currently arguing with Persus; I'm not going to comment much on that until it settles.

What did you think of Flabort's later explanations of why he found those people suspicious?
As an aside: Extending is not strictly/always a towny thing.

[Scripten]

Okay, slept on this and have had time to think it over. Apologies to you, Cheetar, for losing my cool. It's been a rough week IRL.

I'm not blaming you for not changing your vote- merely pointing out that it was not inevitable for Flabort to have been lynched at the time. There was sufficient time for a change of minds (that did not occur.)

The changing of minds did not occur because there was no real reason that I (or we, if we are to assume) could see at the time to switch votes. My case was built on the same foundation, that there was enough time for NQT to make a better case for why we shouldn't lynch Flabort. When he posted his explanations for not doing so, however, I decided that they satisfied me.

Not sure what you mean. Sorry.

I explained in response to the previous quote. You were using the exact same foundation to build on your case on me that I had used to begin my case on NQT. However, you were also saying that me building that case was scummy and, it appeared, working from the assumption that I didn't want Flabort lynched, which is untrue for me.

It's like you're blaming me for not sheeping NQT when NQT has said himself that he hadn't pushed his case hard enough.

Thank you for addressing some of Flabort's concerns. As they were Flabort's, I can't exactly do much to argue them now that you've answered them- I just wanted you to at least respond to them.

I'll be honest here. I didn't really see any of that as valid enough to respond to. The whole case reeked of having been fabricated by scum. In hindsight, it was not, but there was no way for me to know that at the time.


Also, TheDarkStar has legit made me lose my mind. I never said I didn't like posting Day 1 reads. I said that they are often wrong and are not as useful as later reads, but they can move the game state forward, so they are pro-town in general. Can't really respond to anything else in there since none of it has anything to do with the current day. (What's with the stalling?)

[TheDarkStar]

Also, TheDarkStar has legit made me lose my mind. I never said I didn't like posting Day 1 reads. I said that they are often wrong and are not as useful as later reads, but they can move the game state forward, so they are pro-town in general. Can't really respond to anything else in there since none of it has anything to do with the current day. (What's with the stalling?)

You noted that you did not like Day 1 reads, but you saw that they were necessary. That's not my main point, though. Your play yesterday was scummy, and I want you to answer some questions about your lynch choice. It might be about a different day, but how does that make the events of Day 1 less important?