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[NullForceOmega]

If the police do not show solidarity and unity of purpose, even to the point of stupidity, they will lose all credibility in the eyes of the US public.  In spite of all of this ^ the majority of civies want to see a strong united police force, and if they don't have it they start going to pieces.  So there is an incredible amount of pressure on those police to show that strong front.  Doesn't mean they aren't fucking themselves hard with this attitude.

[Bauglir]

Interesting, because everyone I've talked to in person would rather see a police force that's capable of basic introspection. It would not appear weak and disjointed if they took decisive action against people who undermine everything the police are supposed to stand for.

[SalmonGod]

If the police do not show solidarity and unity of purpose, even to the point of stupidity, they will lose all credibility in the eyes of the US public.  In spite of all of this ^ the majority of civies want to see a strong united police force, and if they don't have it they start going to pieces.  So there is an incredible amount of pressure on those police to show that strong front.  Doesn't mean they aren't fucking themselves hard with this attitude.

This doesn't make any sense to me.  Not saying you're wrong about it being a factor in their motivation to behave the way they do, but I could write 10 pages about how counter-intuitive it is to show solidarity with illegal behavior when it's your job to uphold the law, in order to maintain credibility.

[Leafsnail]

It is somewhat hard to talk about trends considering that data on police killings in the US is not actually collected, but all estimates point to the US figure being absurdly high.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/09/08/how-many-police-shootings-a-year-no-one-knows/
Most people think it must be over 1,000.  One researcher individually counted over 600 fatal shootings by police officers in 2011, and that's only counting the ones that appeared in news stories.

By comparison the UK - which has a population of about 1/5th of the US - has somewhere in the order of 30 deaths per year in police custody.  This suggests that hundreds of people are dying needlessly US police forces every year, and also this high death toll implies a far larger pattern of corruption and brutality since only a small minority of incidents lead to fatal shootings.

[NullForceOmega]

Yes, it is absolutely the wrong way for them to handle this, but they are stuck.  In the places where the problems are largest the corruption of the police forces is near-absolute (hierarchal, not numerical), and almost invariably these police forces are larger and more visible, (L.A., N.Y., Detroit, Chicago, Denver) and so smaller police groups have to toe the line or their careers become an immediate dead-end.  It would doubtless be better for every involved party if the police did have the chops to self-regulate, but they do not.

[nenjin]

Yes, it is absolutely the wrong way for them to handle this, but they are stuck.  In the places where the problems are largest the corruption of the police forces is near-absolute, and almost invariably these police forces are larger and more visible, (L.A., N.Y., Detroit, Chicago, Denver) and so smaller police groups have to toe the line or their careers become an immediate dead-end.  It would doubtless be better for every involved party if the police did have the chops to self-regulate, but they do not.

So then, fuck it, right?

[Arx]

A South African friend of mine just told me how the cops in her town tied a Zimbabwean immigrant to their truck and dragged him over the road to death for not having his papers.

I was trying to avoid posting in this thread, but as a South African, at least we fire cops who commit crimes.

Or at least, cops who commit non-xenophobic crimes. Like, y'know, rape and murder. The xenophobia admittedly just gets condoned by the ruling party.

[NullForceOmega]

My opinion is that the US is about to experience total systemic collapse.  Our infrastructure is barely functional, our government is nearly non-functional, civil order is currently breaking down.  All signs point to complete failure of this nation in the next fifty years, probably sooner.  I want things to improve, but I see no reason at this time to believe that they will.  The US is fucked without a massive investure of time and effort by people who aren't going to do it, and the police are just a symptom of that problem.

[Sheb]

NullForceOmega, you never actually have traveled outside the US, have you? I mean, sure, there is plenty of dysfunctional stuff, but it's less corrupt, better functioning, better run that 90% of the world.

Now, yeah, the US police got a lot of problems. Lots of small departments with little or no oversight. Little training. Lots of guns, which makes cops nervous (The US also got one of the highest number of cops killed in the line of duty in the western world). Nothing some real reform can't fix. It just needs to become an issue for candidates in your states.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

A South African friend of mine just told me how the cops in her town tied a Zimbabwean immigrant to their truck and dragged him over the road to death for not having his papers.

I was trying to avoid posting in this thread, but as a South African, at least we fire cops who commit crimes.

Or at least, cops who commit non-xenophobic crimes. Like, y'know, rape and murder. The xenophobia admittedly just gets condoned by the ruling party.

Fair enough m8.

Anyways, @SalmonGod: This whole solidarity thing is like this: First off, pretty much all government, state, and local law enforcement forces are largely autonomous in day-to-day affairs. I also imagine most people do NOT join the police just to shoot people. That said, these otherwise-ignorant-of-whatever-situation officers would rather show solidarity in the face of all police officers being generally attacked, which they are and have been, than condemning every officer of a suspected hate crime willy nilly lest it spiral out of control in to something like McCarthyism 2.0

As far as our law enforcement "record" goes in comparison to say, other western countries, it's certainly worse in many cases, but that isn't a product of newfound corruption. It's a cultural thing. The US police have always had a lot of power and Americans have almost always had fears of the US becoming a Police State. I'm not condoning it, but it'll be hard to change and frankly it is mostly, within the context of preventable action, contained to violent, gun-related shootings. Which again the US has an unfortunate history of 2nd amendment rights idiots to thank for.

@NullForceOmega, I highly doubt the US will collapse. It's not anywhere near total systemic collapse, this kind of unrest is periodic and has occurred throughout our history, and the government is extremely efficient for a government and bureaucracy of its size, despite our complaints. We DO have a bad set of politicians, but such is life.

[NullForceOmega]

Police problems: The prevalence of guns really isn't that big of a deal, police fifty years ago didn't worry non-stop about being shot, and a hell of a lot of people were carrying firearms then, for hunting, self defense, etc.  Undertrained is the issue here, congress fobs off highway maintenance on the states, states can't afford to fund everything, police academies go the way of the dodo, police become undertrained over-equipped cowards who don't know how to carefully disarm a situation or do anything other than tase or mace someone.

Personal belief: It isn't though, nor are political, corporate, or any other type of reform.  And the Republicans have brutally crushed every single attempt made in the past fifteen years to actually do something about our infrastructure.  The US is a train wreck in motion, and instead of someone going 'Shut it down and save what we can!'  they just keep stoking the fires like they can pull through on impetus alone.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

Police problems: The prevalence of guns really isn't that big of a deal, police fifty years ago didn't worry non-stop about being shot, and a hell of a lot of people were carrying firearms then, for hunting, self defense, etc.  Undertrained is the issue here, congress fobs off highway maintenance on the states, states can't afford to fund everything, police academies go the way of the dodo, police become undertrained over-equipped cowards who don't know how to carefully disarm a situation or do anything other than tase or mace someone.

Personal belief: It isn't though, nor are political, corporate, or any other type of reform.  And the Republicans have brutally crushed every single attempt made in the past fifteen years to actually do something about our infrastructure.  The US is a train wreck in motion, and instead of someone going 'Shut it down and save what we can!'  they just keep stoking the fires like they can pull through on impetus alone.

Look at any other country, and tell me it's not also a train wreck. If you think that managing 300 million people will be anything but a train wreck you're wrong. There's no perfect, great, or even good, government system. The US is one of the best m8.

Also, calling police "undertrained over-equipped cowards" is a very extreme and general statement that's frankly also a bit unfounded. If you want to speak generally, it'd be more fair to say we have a very averagely equipped and well trained police force, in fact in CT where I'm from the police are trained very well and lack enough equipment. In terms of infrastructure, that's not really related to police brutality is it? I don't mind the ranting, 'specially cause I rant a lot, but let's try and keep it police related? As far as reform goes, yes, it has ground to a halt at the federal level and will likely to continue to do so until either a party gets control of the congress and the presidency or we have more moderate people than we do now (which are actually surprisingly moderate in comparison to many other country's politicians.)

Finally, do to most people really not caring all the much, the fact of the matter is the US WILL most likely just pull through this on impetus alone. After all, it's already starting to fall out of the news cycle and is really only being kept afloat in the public's eye through sheer force of will of those who feel/have been wronged.

[nenjin]

That's not true for the majority of police departments. Many got Homeland Security money to spend on body armor, better weapons and vehicles, in addition to state legislatures increasing their budgets post 9/11.

And if it's not training that they're lacking these days, it's professionalism. The # of trigger happy cops that have blown people away as their first course of action tells me their training is subpar, or their qualification requirements have fallen.

[NullForceOmega]

A two year degree from a community college will never be an adequate replacement for academy trained police officers, taking a twenty-something recently graduated student and handing them a firearm, taser, mace, and a bulletproof vest then giving them a week or two of 'on the job training' is a recipe for exactly the kind of stupid things happening with our police forces.

To be completely clear, I SUPPORT our police, at least the ones who actually do their jobs (I have plenty of real world experience with ones who don't).  I want them to be properly trained, I want them to have the best tools to perform their jobs available to them, but I do not want any attempt to justify the problems with the existing system and the absolute debasing garbage it currently perpetuates.

[penguinofhonor]

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