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[tkfsung]

I was trying for a fluffy army, armed appropriately with mostly bolters, but noticed that if you do that you end up butchered sooner or later. So try number four: plasma guns/power fists or heavy bolters/power fists? What are peoples' favourite combinations?

[Rolepgeek]

I was trying for a fluffy army, armed appropriately with mostly bolters, but noticed that if you do that you end up butchered sooner or later. So try number four: plasma guns/power fists or heavy bolters/power fists? What are peoples' favourite combinations?

Bolter Drilling plus Storm Bolters and Heavy Bolters.

Also, I've noticed a bug wherein if the primary and secondary weapons of a marine/unit are the same, you cannot change either one.

[Hetairos]

Also, I've noticed a bug wherein if the primary and secondary weapons of a marine/unit are the same, you cannot change either one.

And if a marine with a jump pack gets promoted to a termie (who can't use jump packs), it's impossible to delete it from the equipment. I haven't tried swapping it for a bike.

Do you think you'll make a campaign, or put together a few story events? Do you have your own angle on life as a immortal super-soldier brawling through disparate worlds and crashing into ever more accurately named hell-holes? Warhammer40k is open to anything anywhere happening in it, but i feel it needs a push to exploit that. Enrich my life! >

I've heard King of Dragon Pass-style events (whatever that means) are a possible future feature.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[Retropunch]

W40K has always been about an endless struggle, and I don't think it should be anything you could really 'complete', but it would be great if there were sort of big overarching campaigns you could join into. These wouldn't be stand alone game modes or anything but instead just sort of flow with the rest of the game.

In general, I'd like to see the scope of what the chapter can accomplish scaled down. Instead of the chapter being a sort of civ/4x game superpower, it would instead be a smaller force which cleanses a few worlds/hulks alone but isn't really 'us against the entire galaxy alone' sort of thing. Even adding some more basic diplomacy with other factions/chapters would help

[Scoops Novel]

Games like this need a strong story, or you burnout. That should extend to combat. When i fire the 3000 year old re-purposed twice recovered plasma gun prepared over 3 generations by 1000's of diversely skilled artisans, carried by 5 fore-bearers of my geneseed, whose uncertain patronage i am in fact commanding my allotted serfs to investigate -SWANG ARGH- now that's satisfying. Testing the strengths and weaknesses of the heretics we're repelling, that's better then the 50th ork. Be ambitious.

Have you considered a inquisitorial version, which i admit would mesh better with my requests? Or is that asking for trouble?

[nenjin]

I don't know if the game NEEDS a story.

But I think events and the appearance of enemies could be better fleshed out. Part of my issue is that once you get a leg up on the universe, short of a Tyranid Hive fleet showing up or the orks doing something insane like in Hetairos's pic (It looks like a fucking space hulk!), you tend to keep your advantage. Usually I send out 90% of the Chapter at game start in three battle groups and crush all ork infestations on the map. This usually takes about 100 turns. From then on, I'm basically floating around in space waiting for threats/missions to appear.

So I dunno, rather than a classic story or campaign, maybe the game needs scenarios basically baked into each game. Like, this game is THE Tyranid infestation, or this game is THE 14th Black Crusade. I think that'd leave each game feeling like it has a bit more purpose. Giving faction leaders more of a voice might help the game feel like it's giving you actual opponents to best rather than just endless waves of mooks.

[Zangi]

A story?  I guess if someone wants to make a SEPARATE story mode...  sure. 
I'm in the camp of this does not need a storyline.  Duke doesn't need to be spending his time writing fan fiction, unless he wants to.

On the other hand, an emergent story based on things happening as nenjin suggests, yea.  That would fit with this.  The sector either falls to whatever depravity or the chapter succeeds at protecting it.  (Maybe later on, a new game+ option to move the chapter or in case of a homeworld chapter, an 'expedition' to another sector.)

[Scoops Novel]

What can i tell you man. Warhammer 40k's whole deal is selling you on the idea of SHEER NEUTRON STAR BAKED BADASSITUDE or else it's just poking models about and occasionally putting them to the side.

If we look at XCOM, paragon of turn-based supersoldier combat, in the latest version they tack on "Enemy Unknown". I'm sold on the idea of hopelessly deciphering, manically investigating and gingerly poking with a stick regal inscrutable alien conquerors, scrabbling through one clusterfuck after another. I came for the x-files. What do i get? A "autopsy" button. Games have got to stick with their god damned theme.

[nenjin]

And to be honest, most 40k stories go something like this: conflict --> inevitable betrayal --> severe losses for the heroes --> victory at a high cost. It's a well-known and well-trod format.

Maybe I've just read too much 40k fiction at this point, but I'm not in need of a story for Chapter Master. I'm in need of mechanics which enhance my immersion and give me narrative hooks. Maybe not the best example, but kind of how DF doesn't actually have a story; it just puts all the pieces in place and allows them to interact with each other, and the player derives a narrative from those interactions. That is my hope for how CM progresses.

[puke]

I thought the theme of XCOM was autocannons full of explosive or incendiary rounds going on full auto.  I brought those things to every mission up until the endgame because I liked to cut down the scenery.  This reminds me, I need to pickup Long War again sometime.  Newcom is pretty fun, but in a different sort of way.

I'm with Nenjin.  40K stories are trite and well trod.  I'm all for missions maybe having more stages or being linked to larger events or something -- but I don't need to play through some shitty retrod hero-journey melodrama. 

I'll play an RPG or an Adventure Game or go read a Book for that.  this is Chapter Master.  It should do what it says on the can.  So far, it does.  And I am happy.

[Retropunch]

I agree, more narrative hooks are what is in order. Perhaps you find a space hulk which leads you to a planet with a powerful artefact, which then causes the Eldar to attack en masse - something that gives you a purpose above and beyond 'destroy everything'.

If there were more 'galactic level' events that shuffled things around that'd be great. GalCiv2 had a few of those I believe - events that could completely reshape everything in a single brush stroke - allies suddenly became enemies and viceversa.

[nenjin]

So, here's a couple easy ideas for narrative hooks, that will swiftly go off the rails into fantasy land.

-Names. NAMES. Cultist rebellions should be led by leaders with generated names so we can put a name to the severed head we offer up to the Emperor as proof of our service. This is already happening in a lot of places (Space Hulks and Faction Leaders, the principals in some Inquisition missions get names) but more could be done. Minor threats could get named (it'd be amazing to have our purges recorded 40k style, like the "Purge of Boatmurdered" or "The Abraxian Cleansing." Incursions and invasions could be handled the same.) Planetary governors could/should get names. Shit. Go crazy. Generate names for enemy forces too. That could open up doors I want to, but am not going to, speculate on.

-As mentioned, extending the life of some quests with additional objectives would help. For example, if you need to drop off a 'Gaunt sample to the Inquisition, and that planet happens to be under assault by another enemy....

-Distress calls and a fog of war. Right now the game just tells you there's the appearance of enemies. If planets could accurately assess whether or not they're going to defeat the enemy forces on their planet, and send out distress signals, those would give both purpose and flavor to the core of gameplay: flying around and picking fights. Planets with over 50 million soldiers don't really need the Astartes' help to fend off a moderate Ork threat. It might even add to the game's difficulty if you suppress some notifications, unless a unit is X jumps away. Maybe make the success or failure of these alert posts semi-random, to reflect the occult and unpredictable results of Astropathic communication. Non-random variables might be the event (invasion, capturing a planet, warpstorm, major vs. minor uprisings, event type like a Space Hulk appearance vs. WAAAGGGH. The difference between Astropathic communication and rumor, really.) Maybe that's starting to tread too deeply into unclear gameplay/difficult programming and UI issues. But I think being able to glimpse the larger picture of the state of the Imperium in some ways hurts my late game enjoyment. I've seen it all and burnt out and am just waiting for the next crisis to leap on. I guess what I'm ultimately wanting here is a fog of war in and a cooler/fluffier way to get information about what's going on in the galaxy. Maybe we need an Astropathic Choir tab. Everyone has to have them to communicate across space, after all. You could make that the Chapter Log tab, is the Astropathic Choir tab.

-A better sense of when factions are going to war with each other. Fights between AIs are unseen in my games so far, since they're usually not in control of shit in my galaxies. Imperial factions should also be capable of going to war with each other too. I know I'd enjoy watching the Inquisition giving those smug bastards in the Mechanicus exactly what they deserve. Hell, I'd help, if the cause was righteous in the eyes of the Emperor. It could make for some amazing fleet battles and stories if a Xenos or Heretic decides to get in on the action too....

-More faction corruption. Right now cults rise up and get crushed, fleets show up and get blowed up. It's be nice if a Mechanicus or Imperial world could rapidly fall to Chaos and full on convert, creating a new, potent, dug-in enemy to face. This would need to be pretty rare so it doesn't completely overshadow regular old cultist uprisings. But I feel like the cultist uprisings seriously lack teeth.

On the more content/feature-heavy side of things...

-Game events, or at least game-wide wars. Wars other than Tyranid fleets seem to start very small. A planet or two at a time. If you got a real incursion, I'd expect two or three systems, all planets, to fall under control of the enemy. Of course, that'd have to be carefully balanced so it doesn't like, surround a chapter world or kick a starting player while they're down. But it would carry forward the momentum of the game that seems to peter out once you eliminate all the spawned enemies on the map.

-I feel like interacting planets could be more meaningful. I know the work is started here with planetary approval values and reclaiming them, but again, more could probably be done. It'd be nice to spend more than 1 turn interacting with planetary features, for example, or give our marines longer-term duty assignments (like patrolling a world cleansed of the Ork menace, to clean up loose ends and ensure they're not repopulating.) Maybe recovering STCs and other cool shit should take more time than it currently does, and tie up your forces for longer. And if something were to happen to that planet while they're on their long duty assignments......you start getting the beginnings of a narrative. Or for example, there's lots of generic adventure that could be had on Feral and Death Worlds. Maybe players should be able to explore planets repeatedly, and while there'd still be notable sites like now with their one-shot results, maybe exploring generates random events which can have long term consequences. Like, exploring a Feral world you discover a previously unknown clutch of orks and that touches off an invasion. Maybe you're mucking around on a death world and lose random numbers of marines to carnivorous planets and shit. Maybe you find a valuable resource which gives you a trickle of requisition for a while, as long as the Imperium retains control of the planet. Maybe you come across an old Chaos site and your Librarians go mad, or some of your marines are secretly corrupted.

In fact, I think not immediately revealing some sites and requiring your marines to scour the planet would be a great change. Because right now there's three kinds of planets: planets with artifacts and sites to discover, that I know about right from game start. Planets controlled by the enemy. And planets I don't give a shit about for the most part. Recruiting maybe, tribute maybe, but there's tons of systems I only care about in the context of Heresy. If every planet potentially had a site that I would have to assign marines to search for, in addition to what we already have going. That'd be great. STCs could be made rarer not just by dint of the RNG, but by how much effort and manpower it takes to find them. Of course, while many large features would be spotted by Augurs and Auspex scans from orbit, not all necessarily would. Some sites you wouldn't have to search for, like Sororitas Cathedrals. But I think ruins could easily be hidden. (Or you create multiple kinds of ruins. Big ruins with more content that are easily/immediately found, and smaller ruins with smaller content that you have to search for.)

[Scoops Novel]

Agreed on mechanical depth. I just want the game to surprise me, and have more to it then typical strategy game busywork. More "think fast!" and less "construct additional pylons". Nenjin's right about factoring in personality.

[nenjin]

Also, just straight up planetary unrest would be nice. I know there are rebellions and those are different than cults, but it all sort of seems to be lumped under "Heresy." Planets could probably stand to have a loyalty stat as well. (Or maybe Unrest = the inverse of Loyalty.) Maybe PDF and Guard forces inversely scale to the Loyalty value of a planet, so less loyal planets have less robust armies (representing the amount of effort spent in policing their own people and the population being unwilling to join) making them easier targets for Xenos and Heretics. And that would give Chapters an excuse to visit less-than-loyal worlds. Maybe their very presence increases loyalty (because who is going to rebel with a company worth of Space Marines pointing bolters at you.) Maybe there'd be another form of purge that is less directed at nuking population and reducing heresy, and more focused on combating dissidents and increasing loyalty. It'd also give us a reason to assassinate purge planetary governors, for a reason other than they won't cough up their artifacts. Maybe some planetary governors are the source of unrest while others are the only reason it hasn't gotten worse, faster. Imagine if the planetary governor of your recruiting world, who was a stand-up Imperial citizen, is replaced by a self-serving heretic in waiting. And then Inquisition spot checks your heresy and...oops. You're going to enjoy putting THAT guy's head (Robute Von Hugendong or w/e)  on the wall of the fortress monastery.

Raiding fleets, as opposed to war fleets, would be good too. Maybe it's a fleet that will only eliminate Imperial fleets in orbit but won't try to land troops or capture planets. As long as they're in orbit, planets lose population and armies, loyalty starts to tank as citizens lose faith the Imperium really gives a shit about them. Maybe the raiders come and go at random, representing their hit and run tactics. It'd definitely be a way to work in the Dark Eldar, who do way more raiding than military conquest.

Also, maybe enemy factions need a planet or two at game start that they actually own. An Ork homeworld, a Daemon world, ect... Something with a) lots of defensive-only troops b) good defenses and c) a non-Imperial population. I almost never give myself an excuse to orbitally bombard someone because 99% of the time, it's an Imperial world and doing so is just wasteful. The game giving us a reason to permanently cripple/destroy a world, or not, would be great. Plus large enemy strongholds would be a passive goal for players to tackle. Right now when you clear that last Ork/Tau/Tyranid/Chaos planet from the map, it feels like a bit of an anti-climax.

On the note of reasons not to bombard.....maybe worlds need an infrastructure value too. To represent the resources it can provide beyond souls, soldiers and raw materials (which I guess the planet type already factors into this calc.) Infrastructure would get damaged by raids, attacks, big purges and orbital bombardments. That would help set up the classic 40k scenario of "Too valuable to nuke, send in the ground forces." Maybe the amount of tribute offered by a planet to your chapter is directly related to their infrastructure level, along with their Disposition toward you. (Which would also play into the already existing system of getting Req from nearby forge worlds, who would have a much higher than normal infrastructure value.)

Sorry, I know most of those went from "easy tweaks" to actual fleshed out feature ideas. I guess I'm getting a little in love with the idea of this evolving into as much of a 4x game as it is a strategic war game.

[nenjin]

Ah fuck it I'll double post because I have one more "Gee, wouldn't it be sweet if...." idea.

So enemies are basically a blob of dudes in the macro sense, and a reasonably detailed race/class/weapon combination at the micro level. They're totally faceless though. Your Orks might be Flash Gitz or Blood Axe, your Chaos Space Marines Word Bearers or World Eaters.

Wouldn't it be sweet if that information was actually there? Ork::Flash Gitz::Skulltakerz. Boss::Urg'mak Thrull'Krakah. I'm not going to let the fact the UI can't handle it get in the way of a good fantasy.

The writing debt alone would be huge. The code debt I'm not qualified to say but I imagine expanding how units are grouped and subdivided and tracked could get really messy. And that's before you start doing anything mechanically cool with it, like giving each Race:Group combo its own weapon loadouts and abilities. You'd basically be recreating the other factions outside of the Space Marines, at that point, to the same detail you (and others) have already done the Emprah proud with. Which would then naturally get people to ask you to make or mod Craftworld Master, or WARBOSS: THE GAME, or a Chaos Depravity Simulator or Tau Origami Peace Simulator. At which point you'd say F*** IT and disappear. Either because you were out or GWS had you kidnapped and turned into a programming servitor, or because you hate Tau as much as I do.

But if you manage to populate the enemies with details, I think you really have provided all the essential narrative hooks in enough detail that people could ask for. Who, What, When, Where, Why (This is already clear), and How. The game (outside the Chapter of course) still has a very gameboard feel to it and the faceless enemies I think are a big part of that. It's great to know who the Faction boss is. But it'd be even cooler to know (and HATE) the guys they're the boss of. I forget Faction Leaders even there a lot of time because we don't have reason to speak that often. Which I know is just the guts of something else not done yet.