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[Sappho]

I just want to step in really quick and make a note that although the discussion so far is perfectly reasonable and polite, I just want everyone to watch out for this turning into an argument. It happens so easily, when people disagree on the internet, for a civil discussion to devolve into personal attacks and black-or-white arguments, and I don't want that to happen here. Everyone just keep in mind that when someone makes a general statement, it's never a good idea to take it as a personal attack, and when someone says something you disagree with, it's not necessarily a good idea to assume you're more intelligent or better educated or anything like that, and it's never okay to make a personal attack (although I would hope that wouldn't easily happen on this wonderful forum of ours).

In short: continued civil discussion is A-OK, just be on the lookout for arguments and keep it friendly. Thanks!

That is all. Carry on!

[MaximumZero]

Back when I was a private civilian contractor (I taught six Combatives brush-up courses, didn't pay as much as I thought it would,)I heard a saying from the troops a lot: "If something looks stupid but works, it's not stupid." Every single one if them said it, from the troops straight out of Basic Training to Ranger candidates.

There's a reason it works. We could sit here all day discussing Skinner's techniques, or psychology in general, but that's not the point. The point is to make changes in our lives that we want to see happen. I want to start eating fruit every day to rescue my health, and I'm slowly making that change. No ifs ands or buts, that change is happening, and it doesn't really matter why or how. No matter how silly or dumb this looks, we can still use it to our advantage, and that's the point.

[Orange Wizard]

I generally take the opposite approach, saying if it doesn't work, it is therefore stupid. I wonder what that says about me.

continued civil discussion is A-OK, just be on the lookout for arguments and keep it friendly.

This is true. My tone was noticeably more brusque than I intended.

[Johuotar]

I decided to give it a try and I joined the bay12 club.

[Il Palazzo]

@ Tiruin:
At the risk of sounding like the director of Hayden planetarium, I submit to you: There are various kinds of games out there, each stressing some particular aspect over the others. If you wanted to play games for the challenge of it, I'd think you'd go for puzzle games. If you wanted to play games for the story, there's plenty that do it much much better than any roguelike ever could. What roguelikes do best, is giving you stuff for doing things.
Twenty years ago one could argue that they're playing this or that because there was little else to choose from. These days, though, whenever you decide to play roguelikes, you do it because you prefer this particular aspect of games over any other.

But of course, blanket statements never fit all as well as one might imagine, and I'm not completely insensitive to the pretensiousness of presuming to know what others think. It's just that up to now I'd never even think this issue could be contentious, as in my mind it's a pretty clear-cut case. Anyway, feel free to remain adamant in your disagreement.

[Tiruin]

What makes people play roguelikes is not instant gratification. It's fighting for the smallest of rewards, dying when you aim for something bigger, and trying again. You get beat down, but I will persevere, game! I'm going to get that rusty sword! And neither high water nor the fires of Hell itself will stop me.
You try and fail and try again, until you get what you wanted, clinging to life by a hair, soaked in both your blood and the blood of your foes.
It's not instant reward that makes it sweet, it's the effort you put in to achieve it. Roguelikes do not give an easily-gained sense of accomplishment, because that accomplishment was really sodding hard to get, and I was fighting tooth and nail every step of the way.

I was also ninja'd by Tiriun. Hi, Tiriun. Don't mind me.

*minds ya*
And you outlined the crux~
Yeah ._.
That feeling.
^{Take that Dungeon Crawl SS..take thaaaaaaat :I}

I generally take the opposite approach, saying if it doesn't work, it is therefore stupid. I wonder what that says about me.

continued civil discussion is A-OK, just be on the lookout for arguments and keep it friendly.

This is true. My tone was noticeably more brusque than I intended.

If it doesn't work, therefore I'm stupid (is what I use, and then shift towards other methods Unless...the very concept of how I go about things is wrong...)

Though of note, many internet arguments are noticeably due to assumptions being made :<

..Err, anyway, yeah.

How do you do party-things? As in, invite others?

PPE:
Good point ._.
But I still like roguelikes despite those kinds of...err, niches? Doesn't seem like niches when I think of it and my reason but..mmph, words. :I
^{Also there /are/ good roguelikes with stories but giving stuff for doing things? . . .Err, that could be argued about every game, really :/}
Seems more apparent in roguelikes due to the emphasis of those items I guess.

But of course, blanket statements never fit all as well as one might imagine, and I'm not completely insensitive to the pretensiousness of presuming to know what others think. It's just that up to now I'd never even think this issue could be contentious, as in my mind it's a pretty clear-cut case. Anyway, feel free to remain adamant in your disagreement.

Reinforcing Roguelike Protocol.
I'm not adamant in that I'm not budging, silly. xD
I'm adamant that the usage of blanket terms and generalizing doesn't work when talking about many games. Sure, there are those that are cut and paste from the theme, but there are those that have a different concept (but similarities exist) to a theme.
I just can't see how its an easy gratification thingy you speak of ._. Never sounded like that (or conceptualized like it) for me.

[sjm9876]

For roguelikes, what makes it fun for me is the permadeath itself - though this also mean roguelike fail when this is executed badly.
It gives a tangible consequence for failure, which in turn makes me feel that any victory is due to my own ability rather than having learnt the encounter, which I find rewarding. When I find a powerful magic sword and can just cut through a few levels, I actually enjoy the game less.
Likewise, I also enjoy some puzzle games - but only some. The games in which there are multiple routes to success. When there is only one way to accomplish things it grates, especially when the game is set in a full world rather than just being abstract. The difference between a roguelike and a puzzle game is that puzzle games tend to rely on preset paths. In a roguelike, the gameplay is provided by emergence from the interaction of systems, meaning you can solve a situation in a potentially large number of ways, without being bound by arbitrary limits.

* sjm9876 takes a breath

Anyway, just my 2c. Different people play for different reasons

[Sappho]

There are a lot of possibilities with games, and different types of games work differently for different people, that's for sure. In any case, the reason I brought up the Skinner box stuff is because these techniques are used to condition a player to keep doing something even when it's not fun anymore. There comes a point where, logically speaking, there is nothing enjoyable about killing monster after monster, doing the same missions again and again, grinding, grinding, grinding until you get carpal tunnel and can't tolerate the light of sunlight anymore. This happens most obviously in MMORPGs. The developers can't keep creating new content as fast as players can get through it, so what do they do? They addict you to playing the same content over and over and over again. They do it by giving you those little psychological rewards, the popups, the XP, the gold, the random item drops. Making them collectible and adding achievements makes it even more addictive. If you put in the same amount of effort at a real job, you probably wouldn't get the same sense of achievement as you do when you level up in a game, so people end up spending more and more time at the game and less on real-life useful things.

This is how HabitRPG works. The idea of motivating you to do something that isn't fun doesn't have to apply to clicking and button-mashing. In this case, it's chores, exercise, work. But instead of the vague, long-term benefits that the real world offers, you also get the instant gratification of the XP, the gold, the random item drops. You can collect pets and mounts. You can complete quests. You get a much greater feeling of achievement from doing your housework than you would without the game. That's how it works, and I think this might be the best application of Skinner's techniques I've ever seen.

[smirk]

Getting back to challenges: For exercise, how about something like this? A Daily set 3-4 times per week as "30min exercise" or some other reasonable time. Then in Habits have separate tasks for, say, every 10 sit-ups/crunches, 10 push-ups, 10 squats, 10min of running, and/or any other exercises with little or no equipment requirements. That way people can pick and choose their techniques and gain more xp as they get more fit. Maybe also a task for +10min exercise beyond the original time? Can't really think of any types of monthly goals or To-Dos.

Also, stating for the record that I am in no way an exercise-type person, so input from MZ or others more familiar with it would be greatly appreciated.

[The Fool]

I joined this. I'm on there as TheFool.

[Greiger]

Happy to say that this has now officially passed the point where it is working better than any other method to beat my lazyness and soda habit so far.

The last soda can is still in it's box, and my desk hasn't been garbage free for this long in awhile.  I admit I have been kinda half assing the clean house dailies, but that's because my folks are on vacation and it's hardly normal circumstances this week.  But at least I've removed the old food and did the dishes when I otherwise would have left it all for the last day.

Scariest of all though is that I have a to-do for mowing the lawn and cutting brush today.  And I'm actually looking forward to it because it's the only task on the list within doable range right now that is above easy difficulty, and I'm curious how much xp it will get me.   

I am actually looking forward to mowing the lawn....

[Vector]

-

[Sappho]

my entire to-do list is orange ._.

I'm good at keeping up with the dailies, though : / I started HabitRPG almost simultaneously to my job, so I'm letting it go for now. So far I haven't had any big changes in habit, though I've finally started processing a full sink and full dish racks as a problem, and I'm actually noticing a marked willingness to try to get more things done in a given day than I had before.

Introspective challenge will go up tonight.

My to-do list is all orange, too. It doesn't matter, those can't hurt you. If it helps even a little bit, then it's worth doing, I think. Only do as much as is helpful to you.

[Greiger]

It may also help that I think the darker they are the more they are worth, to try to increase the size of the carrot it's dangling in front of you to get you to finally do it.

Woo lawn mowed, water drank, and shower taken! 21 xp get!

[Antur]

Joined as Antur, might be good help in fight with my summer laziness.