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Author Topic: ☼Warlocks☼ - Everything Warlock Mode  (Read 111494 times)

Meph

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Re: ☼Warlocks☼ - Everything Warlock Mode
« Reply #720 on: March 27, 2015, 05:31:43 am »

Sorry guys for those silly copy+paste bugs. I should really know better by now.
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Enepttastic

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Re: ☼Warlocks☼ - Everything Warlock Mode
« Reply #721 on: March 27, 2015, 05:40:46 am »

Heh, no worries, at least from me. It's gotten me to finally get off my arse and finally start looking/understanding the raws and consider actually start modding. Sadly, only thing I can really think of actually doing at the moment is concepts of how'd I'd do Necros for Reborn...

Yes, I am slightly(may be understating this) insane and never satisfied with doing simple things to start with.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 05:43:23 am by Enepttastic »
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Meph

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Re: ☼Warlocks☼ - Everything Warlock Mode
« Reply #722 on: March 27, 2015, 09:25:53 am »

I actually thought of changing them. When I first designed Warlocks I had two concepts:
 - Normal living civ-members, no pets, all corpses are materials or undeads.
 - Fake-undead civ-members, fake-undead pets, corpses are materials, not real undeads.

I might be inclined to do it differently the next time. Instead of making ghouls and skeletons, you'd have your magical necromancer civ-members and everything else is just "animated"; ending up with lots and lots of uncontrollable walking dead on the map.
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::: ☼MASTERWORK DF☼ - A comprehensive mod pack now on Patreon - 250.000+ downloads and counting :::
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Splint

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Re: ☼Warlocks☼ - Everything Warlock Mode
« Reply #723 on: March 27, 2015, 09:27:58 am »

Personally I like having the skeletons and such. It's different and doesn't leave you with a handful of guys trying to do everything (what with thier habit of dying out and not having caravans to attract new people when they don't get wiped out.)

Meph

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Re: ☼Warlocks☼ - Everything Warlock Mode
« Reply #724 on: March 27, 2015, 09:45:14 am »

But they never siege. If they are a active and still alive civ, they'd attack other players too.
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Splint

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Re: ☼Warlocks☼ - Everything Warlock Mode
« Reply #725 on: March 27, 2015, 11:38:11 am »

And who's fault is it that they would never pick fights with people? :P

I'm kidding of course, but that was a design choice you made. Even trying to coax them into attacking a different race by raiding or whatever has yielded... Lackluster results, I do admit.

j4m

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Re: ☼Warlocks☼ - Everything Warlock Mode
« Reply #726 on: March 27, 2015, 06:12:28 pm »

Does anyone know how to fix the glitch when two headed or four armed ghouls cant become the ghoul master?
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misiekm

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Re: ☼Warlocks☼ - Everything Warlock Mode
« Reply #727 on: March 27, 2015, 06:58:41 pm »

You need to edit the entity_evil_warlock.txt file. Search for "[POSITION:GHOUL_COMMANDER]", you'll find the entry for the ghoul masters. Below [ALLOWED_CREATURE:WARLOCK_CIV:GHOUL], paste:
   [ALLOWED_CREATURE:WARLOCK_CIV:GHOUL_2HEAD_4ARM]
   [ALLOWED_CREATURE:WARLOCK_CIV:GHOUL_2HEAD]   
   [ALLOWED_CREATURE:WARLOCK_CIV:GHOUL_4ARM]

I don't think you can apply those to existing game, but since I'm an utter noob at these things, please point out if I'm wrong :)

Oh, and on the topic of future necromancer / warlock mode:
Frankly, the idea of having your necromancers and a bunch of uncontrollable undead... well, it's certainly unique enough, but I just can't think up any ways to make it very interesting. Would it be an improvement over the current system? I do love the current warlock mode, despite all the tiny bugs and annoyances, and I do think it's worth the sacrifice of not having warlock invaders in other modes (though that might be because, before they became playable, their attacks annoyed the crap out of me in dwarf mode).

I'm very interested to see what ideas are thrown around by people infinitely more creative than me, though!
« Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 07:10:41 pm by misiekm »
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Meph

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Re: ☼Warlocks☼ - Everything Warlock Mode
« Reply #728 on: March 27, 2015, 09:08:17 pm »

It's certainly new and allows for weird combat situations, but maybe the wandering dead affect the FPS too much after you get several hundreds of them.

It would be far, far easier to program though. :D
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Enepttastic

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Re: ☼Warlocks☼ - Everything Warlock Mode
« Reply #729 on: March 27, 2015, 11:30:20 pm »

It's certainly new and allows for weird combat situations, but maybe the wandering dead affect the FPS too much after you get several hundreds of them.

It would be far, far easier to program though. :D

I'll be honest, that change would pretty much kill the mode for me. One of the things I honestly like about Warlocks currently is being able to control my population via raising zombies or skeletons. If I wanted mass produced "pets" I'd play gnome and build clockworks. Has the additional perks of being able to pasture them strategically and not dealing with massive amounts of pathfinding.

Not to mention that playing Necromancers that are able to produce nothing but mindless undead really feels lacking from a thematic point of view.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Here's some of what's come to mind for how I'd think of updating Warlocks/Necros:
Zombies: Left more or less as-is. Cheap, mass-produced unskilled workers. Perhaps give them a limited shelf-life of a year or so to compensate for not having to feed or give them rooms.

Skeletons: Skeletons would be meant for military, labor and middling crafting. Construction would be similar to what it is now: bones, totem, thread/leather, and a soul. Skills could only be upgraded via the inscription process(which I'd probably increase the cost of) but there'd be a cap on production skills due to skeletons lacking the "creative spark" that'd allow them to produce high-quality goods.

Ghouls: This is a group I'd change a bit since, personally, I don't see much of a point to having them at the moment. They're restricted on weaponry, production skills and require food/lodging. What I'd do is make them an improvement over zombies: Faster, able to naturally learn skills(at a reduced rate) with no cap, but require food/lodging/clothing.
For creating them, I'd use the "prepared parts" concept over directly turning a prisoner into a ghoul:
Two arms, two legs, torso, head, soul and heart create a basic ghoul with the additional options of constructing two head/four arm/both variants then or add the parts to a already created ghoul later.
Additionally, perhaps have an inscription-esque upgrade workshop that uses prepared parts and souls for them to increase attributes or gain a temporary boost to skill learning(By group to reduce reaction clutter/micromanaging). Arms could be used for strength/endurance, legs for agility/endurance, torsos for toughness, heads for skill boosts and perhaps have hearts usable for a recuperation boost. To help balance, give them a high rate of skill rust(on production skills at least, perhaps labor as well) to keep any single ghoul from being an undead jack of all trades.
I'd also add a cheapish zombie/skeleton vermin hunter option. Makes little sense to me to have to spend souls to "buy" vermin hunters when the necros can make fully functioning zombies/skeles/ghouls.

For replenishing Necro ranks, I'd see about making it possible to "tempt prisoners promises of forbidden knowledge" to make apprentices. This would be a pass/fail mechanic per prisoner kinda like how strip-searching is. Either they are willing or are not and most will not be willing and some may even take the chance to attack. Apprentices would be capable of learning the same skills a full-fledged Necro can at a reduced speed. After a period of time(year or more), they become full-fledged Necros.

Sacrificial rituals: Instead of using Necros, let it use prisoners with a chance to fail. However, for a vastly improved chance of success, those fledgling apprentices can be used. Their tainted souls make far better catalysts and honestly, why take apprentices if not to use them to do things you don't want to do but can't use your undead for?

Like I said earlier, insane, planning on trying to figure this out myself, etc...
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Meph

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Re: ☼Warlocks☼ - Everything Warlock Mode
« Reply #730 on: March 28, 2015, 02:32:26 am »

Then be prepared for some bad news: I cant do any of that anymore in 40.24. I can not create new creatures from scratch.

Until spawnunit.lua is fixed, updated or replaced, no mod can add something like that, making skeletons, ghouls, etc.

Animating corpses using interactions? Thats easy. :D
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::: ☼Meph Tileset☼☼Map Tileset☼- 32x graphic sets with TWBT :::
::: ☼MASTERWORK DF☼ - A comprehensive mod pack now on Patreon - 250.000+ downloads and counting :::
::: WorldBicyclist.com - Follow my bike tours around the world - 148 countries visited :::

Splint

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Re: ☼Warlocks☼ - Everything Warlock Mode
« Reply #731 on: March 28, 2015, 08:15:26 am »

First, let me say I just woke up and haven't had my morning caffeine yet, so if I sound a bit like a jerkass I apologize in advance.

I'm of a mind to agree with Enepttastic. It'd probably be best to wait for spawnunit to be useable again before updating them, because that was kind of thier schtick along with the spells and everyone hating them. Plus as you said, the hordes of undead blundering around not leaving would probably add a serious strain on FPS after a while unless you went out of your way to regularly smush them (which kind of defeats the purpose. And easier said than done since they can't be manually corralled and bait will die too quickly.) Plus undeads at present are so ridiculously overpowered any challenge would be lost once you had a few dozen roaming around bumping into things (what with the bulk of invaders rarely showing up with more than proficient combat skills.)

I'm also in favor of the using prisoners with a chance to fail (perhaps spectacularly so, such as a botched skeleton banner making some of them hostile or one meant to bolster warlocks accidentally summoning a hostile demon instead.)

Regardless, if I wanted to play generic vanilla necromancers I'd slap the ability to raise corpses onto a copy-pasted human race. It's not really worth the time of someone with your skill at modding to do what amounts to that.

On the other end, you could drop the zombies all together and make them more heavily spell/chemistry focused. A bunch of mad men dissecting live people and trying to learn the art of making someone's skin fall off while turning chickens into slavering murderbeasts is going to probably draw the same amount of ire from civilized folk as zombie infested necromancer towers would.

Meph

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Re: ☼Warlocks☼ - Everything Warlock Mode
« Reply #732 on: March 28, 2015, 08:23:31 am »

Part of the new mod is keeping is closer to vanilla DF, thats why I wanted to make them more like the necromancers that live in towers.

I do like the skeleton/zombie civ-members too, especially for comedic value, but currently I cant create them.

A workaround is to keep the civ alive, with living migrants, which you "kill" by transforming them into skeletons, ghouls and zombies. Re-use your people as resource, instead of corpses. And use the corpses for something else, like contruction, magic reagents and the aforementioned undeads.

That would work, and they could siege/trade with other civs.
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::: ☼Meph Tileset☼☼Map Tileset☼- 32x graphic sets with TWBT :::
::: ☼MASTERWORK DF☼ - A comprehensive mod pack now on Patreon - 250.000+ downloads and counting :::
::: WorldBicyclist.com - Follow my bike tours around the world - 148 countries visited :::

LMeire

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Re: ☼Warlocks☼ - Everything Warlock Mode
« Reply #733 on: March 29, 2015, 03:05:55 am »

Personally, I like the idea of having to maintain a living population to keep the experiments going. It'd be like some combination between the old Dracula and Frankenstein movies- with the decrepit village being lorded over by the big imposing castle. Maybe make the living peasants have a huge penalty in physical strength and discipline skill-gains from having their wills broken, making it absolutely necessary to have the military be undead. But if they learned as normal it might present a good reason to let workers live for a bit before turning them, since getting undead minions to learn anything useful can be quite expensive.
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Meph

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Re: ☼Warlocks☼ - Everything Warlock Mode
« Reply #734 on: March 29, 2015, 03:16:14 am »

That leaves the issue of... what kind of peasantry? Elven peasants and a crazy elven druid? Dwarven peasants and a crazy dwarven magmamancer turning people into golems? Human peasants with a crazy necromancers?

I need a base creature for them... I'd assume they'd be humans.
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::: ☼Meph Tileset☼☼Map Tileset☼- 32x graphic sets with TWBT :::
::: ☼MASTERWORK DF☼ - A comprehensive mod pack now on Patreon - 250.000+ downloads and counting :::
::: WorldBicyclist.com - Follow my bike tours around the world - 148 countries visited :::
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