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Poll

Duke Knight's Momentum is up for revision? Which version of the skill would you prefer?

Current one, unchanged.
+4 AS and +5 DMG when moving 4 spaces or more.
+2 AS and +3 DMG on Player Phase, with additional +2 AS and +2 DMG when moving 4 spaces or more.
+1 AS and +1.5 DMG for each space moved up to 4 spaces.
Current one but AS bonus is converted to DR from the end of the Player Phase until the next one.
I don't know but I want to see the results.

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Author Topic: The Fire Emblem on Forums Hub! 10 Years of FEF!  (Read 297594 times)

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Re: The Fire Emblem on Forums Hub! Looking For Beginner Players!
« Reply #4035 on: May 14, 2018, 05:36:50 pm »

Something like using a Buff staff on two allies at the cost of extra durability damage/whateverit'scalled?
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Re: The Fire Emblem on Forums Hub! Looking For Beginner Players!
« Reply #4036 on: May 14, 2018, 05:57:38 pm »

Regarding the question of whether or not Physical Training needs to be removed:

Physical Training, as a skill, provides a second weapon category to the troubadour on top of their first category. We already have a system for assigning additional weapon categories to a class, and frankly we should be using that instead. This change would result in a minor reduction in weapon availability for the troubadour while allowing them to have a proper class skill that is capable of factoring into their ability to contribute in a tactical discussion.

The sub-ability of Physical Training, additional growths to STR and MAG of 10% each, does nothing to further that goal. While other classes benefit from their class skill more or less immediately, depending on the level of situationalness that such skills are occasionally subject to, the benefits of this bonus growth are both muddy and ever in the future. They never contribute to moment to moment decision making in game terms. While, on average, it represents a bonus of +4 to both stats in the very endgame, I think its very fair to say that this minor contribution does not do enough for the troubadour itself. The troubadour instead is forced to rely on building in very specific ways or relying on specific equipment in order to compete with classes that have better thought out class skills.

Some people have asked: Why healing flow?

Healing Flow was designed to facilitate the possibility of troubadours being able to recover health on multiple targets at a time instead of performing a full heal all at once. This can have the benefits of pre-emptive healing in the case of healing an ally about to enter a fight where they're expected to be damaged but (hopefully) not downed, or to heal someone already in combat who has taken relatively light damage and is expected to take more. Either way, health recovery continues to be a thing turn to turn, which allows the troubadour to either tend to other allies or even attack enemy targets. Obviously this skill has solid applications for troubadours.

Other people have risen the argument: Why not take Self-Healing, and push it somewhere else?

Okay I kind of get where we're coming from with putting Healing Flow on Priests and giving Troubadours Self-Healing because 'priests stick to the rear' and 'troubadours are armed so they do more fighting'. I am not in this camp and I will seek to explain why in as concise a manner as possible while being comprehensive. First off, troubadours do not need sustain any more than a standard combat class. Yes, they will occasionally get hurt, and sometimes they will channel Genji and need healing. This is true of all classes. What is not true of all classes but is true of the troubadour is that our mounted healing class has a mount. They can heal and pull behind the front line away from damage sources, or attack whatever they were planning to attack and pull behind the front line and away from damage sources.

Priests cannot do this. And often, priests will need to move to the secondary line in order to heal tanks or damage classes, putting them in vulnerable range of archers, mages, or any schmuck with a flexible range weapon. This is compounded by the fact that the priest is the only staff class that has no weapon access, which makes them an even more inviting target for any enemy. So the priest has to gormlessly sit there until his next turn before he can slink away from where he's fighting, which is fine because they have self-healing and can recover reasonable amounts of damage provided they survive until their turn. Wait a minute-



Oh no

So putting Healing Flow on Priests shoves them in the very rear of the party so hard it'll make their teeth rattle. They can't control their engagement space and won't be able to recover damage to their tantalizingly vulnerable torsos short of medicine or another healer. Maybe another priest who'll also be stuck back there for the same reason. On the other hand this makes the Troubadour so self reliant I'm not sure why you'd play any other healer at all. Being able to passively heal and control your engagement space means the only time the troub is going down is if they seek it out by willfully overextending. As soon as their HP drops, they have to retreat back for about a turn before running back out and being a dedicated combat class like everyone else. At least maids have to dedicate a turn to healing an Ally to recover their health.

Why is the new skill focused on healing? Why can't it be focused on ailments or buffs?

Well the short answer is because troubadours will be focused on healing regardless so they may as well get something that they'll actually use. The long answer is that, because sources of healing are limited and because HP pools are shallow relative to damage received from an individual enemy, Healing is super super busted and basically is required to be. This is because multiple units per turn are likely to be damaged. There will almost always be more damaged units than healers as soon as one turn into an engagement with a group of enemies. So a healer needs to be able to heal one ally up as high as possible, usually their HP cap, and move right along to the next suffering warrior. And because otherwise you may as well have another fighter, healing is much, much better than hurting.

Heal does 10+MAG recovery, obviously. Let's point out really quickly that this is an E rank staff. Do you know what other E rank weapons have what is essentially a MT of 10 while still interacting with a damage stat? Devil Weapons, and that's it. Some of the heavier categories get to 10 or above at rank D, but lighter weapons have to wait for as high as B class before seeing what is essentially 10 MT. Mend is double that and no weapon short of Armageddon, which is an S rank tome and is probably going to be thrown out can match 20+STR/MAG.

This may sound like I am pushing for a nerf to healing. I am not. Without major structural changes (nerfing MT across the board or increasing HP or both) healing in its current state is needed for groups to be functional the way we play this game. This is just an explanation of why your healer only ever seems to do healing instead of using buff or ailment staves, and why having a skill focused on either of those things would likely end up being wasted effort.

Anyway the discussion has been moving fairly quickly for a bit and I just wanted to address some questions that have come out of the recent poll.

Sirus

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Re: The Fire Emblem on Forums Hub! Looking For Beginner Players!
« Reply #4037 on: May 14, 2018, 06:10:31 pm »

I'd like to note, for the record, that the idea of creating a skill applying to Buff or Ailment staffs was merely a suggestion. I'm not wedded to the idea because, like you say, troubadours will be using healing staffs much of the time in any case.

My only purpose for bringing up those other misbegotten subcategories was to point out the massive disparity in the attention healing gets over other possibilities. If every single class that can possibly heal has skills that are dedicated to healing, then things will only get worse. I feel we need to mix things up somewhat, and give units that can choose to fight rather than heal something that will help them in that regard.
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Re: The Fire Emblem on Forums Hub! Looking For Beginner Players!
« Reply #4038 on: May 14, 2018, 06:41:00 pm »

Surprise surprise, the reason they're misbegotten is because literally nobody uses them over heal staffs until you get an overabundance of healers.

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Re: The Fire Emblem on Forums Hub! Looking For Beginner Players!
« Reply #4039 on: May 15, 2018, 06:22:58 am »

Right, because most strategies involve staff users becoming mindless healbots who are wasting their turn if they aren’t doing anything except healing. Which is bad.
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Re: The Fire Emblem on Forums Hub! Looking For Beginner Players!
« Reply #4040 on: May 16, 2018, 12:23:59 pm »

Right, because most strategies involve staff users becoming mindless healbots who are wasting their turn if they aren’t doing anything except healing. Which is bad.

It's a consequence of the system how it is. To combat it you'd need deeper healthpools. Lowered MT across the board could also work but not as effectively.

Culise

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Re: The Fire Emblem on Forums Hub! Looking For Beginner Players!
« Reply #4041 on: May 16, 2018, 06:26:58 pm »

Alternatives also include more innate healing and healing items.  If everyone has access to cheap Vulneraries, Concoctions, or Elixirs based on appropriateness for game progression, then the trade-off shifts from whether the healer should be healing or buffing/debuffing to whether the healer buffing/debuffing is worth the injured (or another) player healing themselves instead of attacking.

That, unfortunately, may still be a bit of an open question as well.  Eliminating enemies prevents all the damage they would deal in the future, making attacking pretty darn good (as it should be).  Certain debuffs can temporarily remove enemies and the Again buff is effectively transferring your action to another player, which is better in cases where you can't eliminate an enemy outright. 
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 06:30:27 pm by Culise »
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Re: The Fire Emblem on Forums Hub! Looking For Beginner Players!
« Reply #4042 on: May 16, 2018, 06:38:33 pm »

Well vulneraries (not so much concs or elixirs) recover very little HP, so using them for mid battle recovery isn't very effective, since average single exchanges are going to have around 10 damage dealt to people getting hit.

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Re: The Fire Emblem on Forums Hub! Looking For Beginner Players!
« Reply #4043 on: May 16, 2018, 06:55:12 pm »

"You actually didn't do any damage to me but any damage I did to you will stick, and so will any I do to you next turn when you attack me again"?
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Culise

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Re: The Fire Emblem on Forums Hub! Looking For Beginner Players!
« Reply #4044 on: May 16, 2018, 07:00:47 pm »

Well vulneraries (not so much concs or elixirs) recover very little HP, so using them for mid battle recovery isn't very effective, since average single exchanges are going to have around 10 damage dealt to people getting hit.
Aye. I included them to consider the early game as well, but poking about, it is true that a single exchange can easily be 7-14 damage on average even at level 1.
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Re: The Fire Emblem on Forums Hub! Looking For Beginner Players!
« Reply #4045 on: May 16, 2018, 07:03:20 pm »

So would increasing the amount they heal be worth it or not?
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Re: The Fire Emblem on Forums Hub! Looking For Beginner Players!
« Reply #4046 on: May 16, 2018, 08:11:55 pm »

I'm not really sure. Vulneraries already heal the user for about half their HP pool at character generation. The more I think about this the more I think that boosting HP across the board is just the way to go.

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Re: The Fire Emblem on Forums Hub! Looking For Beginner Players!
« Reply #4047 on: May 16, 2018, 08:21:43 pm »

Man, we should run a test game to see how well increased HP pools across the board would turn out in an actual realistic scenario.                                                                                                                                                                    /s
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Re: The Fire Emblem on Forums Hub! Looking For Beginner Players!
« Reply #4049 on: May 17, 2018, 05:45:42 am »

well that’s just lazy
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