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[Vector]

All right, I'm going to come out with it.  I realize that I'm probably part of the problem, because I tend to jump on people with a lot of links and harsh language when I get upset.

The thing is, though, that from my point of view no amount of politeness or "respect" that can make racist, homophobic, and sexist (etc.) opinions not feel like a dogpile.  The person employing them is supported by an eliminationist culture.  And, debating these things like they're intellectual topics rather than things that are continuously determining the paths of people's lives, usually for the worse, is pretty hurtful.

Anyway, I'm not merely a douche.  I'm a defensive douche : /

[Owlga]

You shouldn't be apologizing if people are being racist, sexist or anything else like that. No matter how firmly they believe in that. I'm pretty sure even debating those intellectually or otherwise breaks the rules anyway.

Honestly, I don't get why this topic is a thing. Yes you have a minority viewpoint. Be nice about it and everyone should be fine. But also, the moment someone says something that sorta makes them a bigot you don't really need to be nice with them anymore. They're kind of an asshole just by their beliefs at that point.

[Sheb]

But hearing their viewpoints is still interesting. I'd rather have discussions with bigots rather than beat them back with our self-righteous anger. It's not like the world is going to be a better place because you've been rude to a bigot.

[Gunner-Chan]

I think the point she's trying to make is don't feel bad if you've done it before.

[kaijyuu]

And, debating these things like they're intellectual topics rather than things that are continuously determining the paths of people's lives, usually for the worse, is pretty hurtful.

Aren't these things the most important ones to talk about intellectually? Discussions on ethics are one of the easiest to undermine due to getting defensive. Being dismissive and condescending is what earned PETA's reputation, for example.

(I was about to put "uncompromising" in there too, but there are a few things I'd say no one should have to compromise over. It's a shame when compromise is forced on these things for practicality reasons, too)

[Remuthra]

oh wait....that would be all Americans, from the British point of view.

No, it's completely different. Our separatists were better.

As for the politics, the secret is that the liberals promise to increase the size of the government and taxes while giving all the money to the poor, and then raise taxes, increase the size of the government, and take all the money for themselves, while conservatives promise to decrease the size of the government and taxes while giving all the money to the middle class, and then raise taxes, increase the size of the government, and take the money for themselves. So the liberals are more honest, you see?

[Vector]

And, debating these things like they're intellectual topics rather than things that are continuously determining the paths of people's lives, usually for the worse, is pretty hurtful.

Aren't these things the most important ones to talk about intellectually? Discussions on ethics are one of the easiest to undermine due to getting defensive. Being dismissive and condescending is what earned PETA's reputation, for example.

(I was about to put "uncompromising" in there too, but there are a few things I'd say no one should have to compromise over. It's a shame when compromise is forced on these things for practicality reasons, too)

The thing is, though, why should I have to intellectually debate whether my life is worth less than someone else's?  That's basically what sexism is, in general.  Why shouldn't I get mad at someone trying to convince me that I deserve fewer opportunities?

And so on, and so forth.  I've been jumped on by other people, too, when I was "just wondering..." and being a bigot, and frankly, I'd much rather have that emotional honesty than drain someone in order to protect my feelings at the distinct, and repeated, expense of theirs.

[Sheb]

But then, if you don't want to discuss such things intellectually, what are you doing on a political discussion board in the first place?

[kaijyuu]

Well if we assume this is the type of person who will listen to you at all, you throw away any chance of convincing them of anything.

If we assume they're not the type to listen at all, it's not worth your time to reply. (for these boards in particular, there's a report button)


EDIT: I'd like to mention that no one is saying you shouldn't feel hurt/etc or that anything is really your fault.

[Mr. Strange]

I'd rather have discussions with bigots rather than beat them back with our self-righteous anger.

I'd rather beat them with big stick. Really, I never could stand bigots and that self-righteous holier-than-thou attitude is like waving red flag in front of my face, it doesn't mater what they are arguing for.

[smirk]

And, debating these things like they're intellectual topics rather than things that are continuously determining the paths of people's lives, usually for the worse, is pretty hurtful.

Aren't these things the most important ones to talk about intellectually? Discussions on ethics are one of the easiest to undermine due to getting defensive. Being dismissive and condescending is what earned PETA's reputation, for example.

(I was about to put "uncompromising" in there too, but there are a few things I'd say no one should have to compromise over. It's a shame when compromise is forced on these things for practicality reasons, too)

The thing is, though, why should I have to intellectually debate whether my life is worth less than someone else's?  That's basically what sexism is, in general.  Why shouldn't I get mad at someone trying to convince me that I deserve fewer opportunities?

And so on, and so forth.  I've been jumped on by other people, too, when I was "just wondering..." and being a bigot, and frankly, I'd much rather have that emotional honesty than drain someone in order to protect my feelings at the distinct, and repeated, expense of theirs.

It depends on what your goal is. If the desired end is to get the person to change their views, then civility and evidence will work better than anger and evidence.

Although given the chances of anyone actually altering their opinions via online debate, it probably doesn't make much difference anyway. I suppose that's where optimism comes in.

[kaijyuu]

Although given the chances of anyone actually altering their opinions via online debate, it probably doesn't make much difference anyway.

Was waiting for someone to post something like this.


If we don't have any hope of anyone changing any opinions or bringing any facts to light, then there's literally no good reason to discuss things in the first place. The entire exercise becomes one of posturing; a competition to see who can be Right and feel superior to others, and who can be Wrong and looked down upon. Those sorts of discussions are toxic and have no place here.

[Sheb]

I'd rather have discussions with bigots rather than beat them back with our self-righteous anger.

I'd rather beat them with big stick. Really, I never could stand bigots and that self-righteous holier-than-thou attitude is like waving red flag in front of my face, it doesn't mater what they are arguing for.

But then, a discussion forum may not be the best place to do it.

[nenjin]

I don't really consider passive-aggressive complaints about there being no conservatives in the lower boards to be polite.

[Mr. Strange]

I'd rather have discussions with bigots rather than beat them back with our self-righteous anger.

I'd rather beat them with big stick. Really, I never could stand bigots and that self-righteous holier-than-thou attitude is like waving red flag in front of my face, it doesn't mater what they are arguing for.

But then, a discussion forum may not be the best place to do it.

What if I describe the beating in all of it's graphic detail?