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Author Topic: Banter Thread  (Read 385505 times)

ToonyMan

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Re: Banter Thread: Has this really been a thing for four years edition
« Reply #2385 on: December 31, 2020, 02:38:29 pm »

Caz why did you point that out. *face palms*

Some people just have really small Grinch hearts.

EDIT:
This isn't towards you Caz, fyi.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2020, 02:49:41 pm by ToonyMan »
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Vector

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Re: Banter Thread: Has this really been a thing for four years edition
« Reply #2386 on: December 31, 2020, 02:49:09 pm »

Caz why did you point that out. *face palms*

I would suspect that it's because she finds it personally offensive, although I don't want to stick words in her mouth.
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webadict

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Re: Banter Thread: Has this really been a thing for four years edition
« Reply #2387 on: December 31, 2020, 02:56:53 pm »

I'm not making this point for myself; I'm making it for the sake of our female-identified players, of whom we currently have a grand total of zero. For that reason, I will just say that you are missing the target and my personal likability is irrelevant to the situation I intended to discuss.
I do see this as a bit of a failing, though. A lot of it might that we do condone a bit of a more toxic environment around here, and some of that is because we do almost reinforce people being insulting and rude to other people. That's not to say that women aren't able to play or even thrive in this game, but could this create an exclusionary effect for groups that are already feeling excluded? Why should we silently allow that? We don't need to create an artificial barrier to entry. The entry fee should be the willingness and dedication to play and a propensity to accept failure. This in itself is already a higher barrier than we expect out of most forum games, but I think that that's where we should draw the line in the sand. Honestly, I value your opinion highly on this because you have a much better insight into this than I do, on multiple fronts, so I appreciate you sharing whatever you can.

I don't expect anyone to be sad that I'm not around. I do expect people to be sad that the subforum has gotten so small, so I expect that people care that I left in that our number of active players was decremented by 1, just as I hope that they care that, say, Org is gone. Org was a lousy player and I'm sorry he's not around.
Hm, maybe that's where I differ. I am sad to see players leave. ... I'm... not that sad about Org, since they refused to learn from their play or improve in general. That is a point of contention that I can't fully justify. I think maybe Org might have been a detriment to the game overall, and maybe that could be something that we hold players to. It's going to create an air of elitism, though, and that does lessen our player pool, but that seems like it'd be beneficial to the overall play experience. Perhaps we should keep certainly players from moving past the Beginner's Mafia stage if they do act in ways that run counter to the fun of the game? Can we allow ourselves that freedom?

If you would like me to be direct with you, Dolores, I think that your WoTing habits are also not helping, although I didn't call you out for them directly because we have historically treated WoTs as being intrinsically good play, and I didn't think that calling you out specifically would be appropriate. I'm not vaguebooking. A lot of players here through the years have made long posts the norm, including myself. Changing the norm starts with addressing the damage we have caused.
Yes. It's a habit I've been trying to break myself of. Heck, I'm one of its innovators. I'll stand with you on that. It's also a scary aspect for veterans and new players alike.

Caz why did you point that out. *face palms*

Some people just have really small Grinch hearts.
I don't think dolores has a small Grinch heart. I've been in a position like theirs before. It's certainly possible that they do not ever wish to let someone see that, but to say they have a small Grinch heart only worsens the problem, so long as they maintain etiquette. If they want to discuss things here without the slurs, I have no problems with that. I think it's abhorrent that they would say something like that about anyone but me, but maybe that's just the person I am. I am not necessarily anyone's friend, but I would never want anyone to be treated poorly here, for any reason. That isn't a position I started with.

This is good, I'm glad everyone is talking about things.

We definitely had this subforum basically die for a while, I think the culture we had going added to the natural stresses of mafia were a large part of that.

Is there anything you guys think I can do to help out?
Hm, I'm not sure. Do you have any insight you want to share? Moderator-focused, player-focused, etc. I think the best thing we can do here is discuss. Maybe my only question to you is that if we do add some basic decorum rules, would you be able to ensure that they're followed?
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heydude6

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Re: Banter Thread: Has this really been a thing for four years edition
« Reply #2388 on: December 31, 2020, 02:59:53 pm »

It is something I wish Dolores could have edited out. I wanted to say something, but I didn’t know how to say it without being confrontational and starting a fight.

It seems like they were applying that word to Web in this context at least, so at least it was used on someone who can handle it.

Shows the flaw in the thick vs thin skin way of thinking though. There are some words you shouldn’t say regardless of “skin”.

Ninjaed.

Meph, do you think it would be prudent to edit the word out?
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Vector

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Re: Banter Thread: Has this really been a thing for four years edition
« Reply #2389 on: December 31, 2020, 03:07:03 pm »

No, I'm pretty sure that was intended for myself and Tiruin. However, as I mentioned in my initial post on this topic, this is far from my first rodeo.

I'm good with a Meph-edit for the sake of preserving a chill atmosphere.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

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dolores

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Re: Banter Thread: Has this really been a thing for four years edition
« Reply #2390 on: December 31, 2020, 03:13:37 pm »

I'm not here to pick a fight with you, dolores.
I don't think anyone is, specifically. It was a figure of speech, and it was directed at Vector for crossthreading. I am picking a fight over the crossthreading.
Mafia is a game of logical, emotional, and social clues. You can win by using any one of these methods. I think you've mastered the logical aspects of the game.
I've not mastered anything by any measure, or I wouldn't be here, obviously.
Bay12 in general is a dead end for art, which I would claim is also obvious but that varies on your school of thought.
There's a point at which my focus on the only part of the game I find generalizeable will come at a detriment to my ability to compete in the game. I don't think we're anywhere near that yet. The only games I've been in where other elements play a large part are broadly without merit.

of whom we currently have a grand total of zero
How the fuck would you know.
The key point I am making is that this literally doesn't come up. I'd say that someone digging through another player's post history to give them personal shit is probably needlessly exposing themself to getting picked up by external moderation before they'll be able to make anything very useful out of it; and again, this kind of degenerate gameplay isn't really advancing the meta.
I don't expect anyone to be sad that I'm not around. I do expect people to be sad that the subforum has gotten so small, so I expect that people care that I left in that our number of active players was decremented by 1, just as I hope that they care that, say, Org is gone. Org was a lousy player and I'm sorry he's not around.
Org being around is bad for the longterm health of the subforum, and taints any game he touches. What's the point of playing mafia specifically if you're not going to take it seriously.
I'm talking about why I left. I didn't mention why I left when I left; I just left. I'm mentioning it right now because I'm having a good time playing and I am trying to think about how to get more people to stay and enjoy the game. I wanted to say that forum subculture had something to do with why I left because we then gain a data point: indeed, people have left due to our behavior.
Like, you're aware that we're all aware that his is intellectually dishonest. This kind of anecdote is obviously anecdotal, that's what it is. Why position it as a 'data point'?

Some people just have really small Grinch hearts.
And third parties still come out of the woodwork to defend them to this day.
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Vector

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Re: Banter Thread: Has this really been a thing for four years edition
« Reply #2391 on: December 31, 2020, 03:32:55 pm »

I read people's posts, old and new, because I'm curious about them as human beings. It's interesting to see how people work and try to see what's going on with them.

I also try to keep tabs on the gender makeup of the subforum because I've spent years in a profession which requires paying attention to how minority members of a social cohort are experiencing their environment, and then intervening as necessary to make the environment more inclusive. Indeed, no one can be certain of the gender of anyone here, but I do know that I initially presented as male in order to fit in, and that none of our current players publicly identify as female.

Regarding that point about data: I'm not claiming statistical meaningfulness, I'm talking about existence. For that purpose, anecdotal data is indeed meaningful.

I apologize for stirring the hornet's nest. I actually don't know from personal experience what makes you angry; I read through BYOR 0 because it was in the Notable Games Archive and I was curious about the meta that everyone was throwing around in the game we're currently playing. That's my knowledge of you. Clearly you are more complex than your posts here, as we all are. However, being deliberately provocative outside of the context of a game is not my style, which I hope you will take on faith.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

FallacyofUrist

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Re: Banter Thread: Has this really been a thing for four years edition
« Reply #2392 on: December 31, 2020, 03:38:50 pm »

Insult wise, mafia is clashy by nature. I might call someone an idiot if I think they're acting dumb - without any intention to actually insult their intelligence. Same for calling them an ass. But there's definitely a line that should be drawn at some point.

After BYOR 15 finishes, I'm hoping to run a sequel to Mostly Vanilla Mafia if roseheart doesn't take priority. The issue with Beginner's Mafia games isn't that they aren't good for teaching the basics (because they are), it's that they're not enticing to players. When the newbies spectate our games, they're more likely to be looking at the zany shenanigans of Mafiakart, or the perplexing puzzles of Bellsounder and Witches' Coven, not the 'you are a Vanilla Townie!' gameplay of the mountainous setups and Beginner's Mafia games. Which is why I like what I'm trying to accomplish with Mostly Vanilla Mafia, because it's simple enough to use as a teaching tool while still giving everyone a bit of power to make them feel special.
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hector13

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Re: Banter Thread: Has this really been a thing for four years edition
« Reply #2393 on: December 31, 2020, 04:03:10 pm »

If everyone’s special, no-one is.
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Mephansteras

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Re: Banter Thread: Has this really been a thing for four years edition
« Reply #2394 on: December 31, 2020, 04:04:18 pm »

This is good, I'm glad everyone is talking about things.

We definitely had this subforum basically die for a while, I think the culture we had going added to the natural stresses of mafia were a large part of that.

Is there anything you guys think I can do to help out?
Hm, I'm not sure. Do you have any insight you want to share? Moderator-focused, player-focused, etc. I think the best thing we can do here is discuss. Maybe my only question to you is that if we do add some basic decorum rules, would you be able to ensure that they're followed?

Well, mod-wise I think it's important that those of us running the game remember that the main point is that the game is interesting and engaging. Ideally fun, though mafia is a game that I find runs less to 'fun' and more towards 'mentally stimulating' for a lot of people. Which is fine, but I strive for my games to be both. I think I succeed more often than I fail, but I've definitely had failures in that regard.

I do think trying to expand our player base again would be good. Getting beginner games and whatnot running would be nice for that. And probably a few more vanilla-ish games that are easier for new people to jump into (we have some planned, yes). Bastard Paranormal and BYOR are neat, but I'd hate to be a new person in either of those.

On more of a Moderator level, I tend to be more hands-off, but that's partly because for a long time we've had a more contentious culture in this sub-forum and I didn't want to just drive everyone off by clamping down. Toady seems to have agreed with that approach for the most part, and this sub-forum is a bit less regulated than the rest of the forum. That may have been a mistake.

If we want to enforce some community guide-lines I'm happy to step in and do that with mod-edits and warnings and the like. We'd need people to specifically draw my attention to things, though, as there is no way I'm going to be able to read every single post in detail for that sort of thing. We'd also need to decide exactly what our standards are going to be.
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heydude6

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Re: Banter Thread: Has this really been a thing for four years edition
« Reply #2395 on: December 31, 2020, 04:10:11 pm »

Seems like a dangerous slippery slope to travel down. We definitely should think hard about the rules before we go around enforcing any.
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webadict

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Re: Banter Thread: Has this really been a thing for four years edition
« Reply #2396 on: December 31, 2020, 04:21:21 pm »

I don't think anyone is, specifically. It was a figure of speech...
...
I've not mastered anything by any measure, or I wouldn't be here, obviously.
Bay12 in general is a dead end for art, which I would claim is also obvious but that varies on your school of thought.
There's a point at which my focus on the only part of the game I find generalizeable will come at a detriment to my ability to compete in the game. I don't think we're anywhere near that yet. The only games I've been in where other elements play a large part are broadly without merit.
...
Org being around is bad for the longterm health of the subforum, and taints any game he touches. What's the point of playing mafia specifically if you're not going to take it seriously.
Ah, I made an unfair assumption. However, I do think you give yourself too little credit, but that's a bit of a moot point right now.

I think you and Vector have convinced me. I think you're right about Org. I had numerous contentious issues with them, and their flippant attitude towards the game was not helpful in the slightest. I'd be willing to take a harder stance against that behavior, since it certainly does feel negatively impactful on the metagame (We allow people like that to get away with outrageously disrupting behavior, and I disliked it.)

I read people's posts, old and new, because I'm curious about them as human beings. It's interesting to see how people work and try to see what's going on with them.

I also try to keep tabs on the gender makeup of the subforum because I've spent years in a profession which requires paying attention to how minority members of a social cohort are experiencing their environment, and then intervening as necessary to make the environment more inclusive. Indeed, no one can be certain of the gender of anyone here, but I do know that I initially presented as male in order to fit in, and that none of our current players publicly identify as female.
I am quite similar, actually, but my rationale behind it has changed over the years. I'd like this to be a welcome subforum with a dedicated base of players, and if we could find newer players that want to join us because they too are dedicated, I think that's overall an improvement. If we have to make some changes to the culture because of that so that minority members might feel more included... I'm actually very in favor of it, and we could only be better because of it. I think anyone that isn't in favor of it might be more of a toxic influence than not, and while we might lose their membership, it seems like a worthwhile investment overall, as a more positive culture would certainly make me enjoy these games more.

The issue with Beginner's Mafia games isn't that they aren't good for teaching the basics (because they are), it's that they're not enticing to players. When the newbies spectate our games, they're more likely to be looking at the zany shenanigans of Mafiakart, or the perplexing puzzles of Bellsounder and Witches' Coven, not the 'you are a Vanilla Townie!' gameplay of the mountainous setups and Beginner's Mafia games. Which is why I like what I'm trying to accomplish with Mostly Vanilla Mafia, because it's simple enough to use as a teaching tool while still giving everyone a bit of power to make them feel special.
I think there are two ends to this spectrum. The wild and crazy setups certainly lessen the Day game impact, and the more vanilla setups focus almost entirely on it. But, the Day game is important. Perhaps there is a way to make an Power Role filled version of Beginner's Mafia? It doesn't seem impossible to me, and it'd allow for a BM that has a bit of both aspects. Puzzle games are an entirely different breed of game, though, and I don't think that could accurately be mimicked in a BM game. Your Mostly Vanilla Mafia has some benefits in this regard, and I'd be a bit interested in using a system like this in Mamobo, if you were interested in helping.

Spoiler: Length (click to show/hide)
NOTE: I am not against helping you with moderation should you ever feel the need. I actually nominated you to Toady for the Moderator position specifically because I felt that you were very hands-off for the most part and that most people would believe you to be a very unbiased person should an argument break out and need resolution. I did not have the same faith in myself at that point.

I think you and hector13 are right, in that zealotry is probably not the way to go, but that as a community, we would need to strive for a better culture. It shouldn't rest on your back to solve all of our issues, and that's why I'm bringing this discussion up at all. That's why I trust a lot of what Vector says, as they have experienced a lot of our issues firsthand, and if they can give us insight into what we can all do better as a community, then we can be a more inclusive community. Those are not all of our issues, but it is something I think should be addressed while we discuss them.
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Jim Groovester

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Re: Banter Thread: Has this really been a thing for four years edition
« Reply #2397 on: December 31, 2020, 04:39:46 pm »

After BYOR 15 finishes, I'm hoping to run a sequel to Mostly Vanilla Mafia if roseheart doesn't take priority. The issue with Beginner's Mafia games isn't that they aren't good for teaching the basics (because they are), it's that they're not enticing to players. When the newbies spectate our games, they're more likely to be looking at the zany shenanigans of Mafiakart, or the perplexing puzzles of Bellsounder and Witches' Coven, not the 'you are a Vanilla Townie!' gameplay of the mountainous setups and Beginner's Mafia games. Which is why I like what I'm trying to accomplish with Mostly Vanilla Mafia, because it's simple enough to use as a teaching tool while still giving everyone a bit of power to make them feel special.

Putting new players through a training camp is also a very good method of filtering them which is alright if you have a healthy subforum and the trickle of players who stick around matches the rate of attrition but terrible if your forum is dead.

I recall thinking some years ago that the true purpose of the Beginner's Mafias was to keep new players from ruining the games everybody else was enjoying on the forum and it was succeeding wonderfully at that purpose.

I wonder what Jim thinks about all of this? He seems pretty upset at the moment and I'm not sure he would brush aside the causes of those feelings as "just mafia things"

What am I supposed to be upset at? I hope people don't think I'm actually upset about something.

Quote
code of conduct/community guidelines/etc.

I haven't been here for five years so I don't have much standing to have an opinion but I'm not in favor.

It might be more useful to remind people that this is a silly internet game that people play for fun and that there actually isn't anything at stake, and certainly nothing worth being a gigantic asshole to somebody else for, and by the same token nothing worth enduring being subjected to a gigantic asshole for.
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FallacyofUrist

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Re: Banter Thread: Has this really been a thing for four years edition
« Reply #2398 on: December 31, 2020, 04:48:58 pm »

I think there are two ends to this spectrum. The wild and crazy setups certainly lessen the Day game impact, and the more vanilla setups focus almost entirely on it. But, the Day game is important. Perhaps there is a way to make an Power Role filled version of Beginner's Mafia? It doesn't seem impossible to me, and it'd allow for a BM that has a bit of both aspects. Puzzle games are an entirely different breed of game, though, and I don't think that could accurately be mimicked in a BM game. Your Mostly Vanilla Mafia has some benefits in this regard, and I'd be a bit interested in using a system like this in Mamobo, if you were interested in helping.
I'd love to do some setup design with you for Mostly Vanilla Mafia 2 (which would then let Meph be an IC if he wanted, heh).
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FoU has some twisted role ideas. Screw second-guessing this mechanical garbage spaghetti, I'm basing everything on reads and visible daytime behaviour.

Would you like to play a game of Mafia? The subforum is always open to new players.

hector13

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Re: Banter Thread: Has this really been a thing for four years edition
« Reply #2399 on: December 31, 2020, 04:55:06 pm »

I think don’t be an asshole is a good rule of thumb for mafia behaviour.

The only major issue is that assholery is subjective.
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Look, we need to raise a psychopath who will murder God, we have no time to be spending on cooking.

the way your fingertips plant meaningless soliloquies makes me think you are the true evil among us.
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