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[ToonyMan]

Sure, but playing mafia isn't illegal where I live and I would get banned from the forums saying certain things.

[webadict]

Certain words shouldn't be allowed obviously.

There's no string of racial/cultural/etc. epithets that's nearly as offensive as the attempt to manufacture a narrative which runs counter to the broader awareness and identity narrative of the reader and supplants their judgements and causes them to harm their own interests. It is literally the worst thing you can do to someone with art.
It's also what you're expected to do in mafia.
I don't think issues with recruitment have anything to do with culture (and have elaborated as such before, though without checking it couldn't say if what I said was correct), but surely if you're trying to find long term active players based on the information set available to you, you should be catering to the kind of environment which would appeal to young!webadict, right?

I was here when the subforum was created, and it was through the efforts of myself and several other people that enjoyed the game. I think that the necessary components to get people to join are dedicated players running and playing games.

I remember your arguments, and some of them do bring good points. But, I maybe you're right in that no matter what environment we have here, it's dedication that creates the crowd.

So maybe I am wrong there. Maybe I want a place that I can keep showing up and playing. And for me, I definitely want a bit of a light-hearted place. No early!webadict insult behavior. That means that insults aren't personally a problem with me. Calling someone a peasant seems hilarious to me because it feels almost childish, like we are all children at heart, trying to find the ones we can and can't trust in a semi-uncaring world.

You make a good point, dolores. Sometimes, I find your behavior overbearing, though. But, I do like that you are super dedicated and overall a fantastic player. You know what I mean?

[heydude6]

If somebody is going to replace out because they can't handle the pressure or anxiety then I'm not sure what you could change without mafia not being mafia anymore.

You're probably right about that. Pointing out objectively bad town plays can also hurt the feelings of certain people, but you have to do that to play the game right.

I wonder what Jim thinks about all of this? He seems pretty upset at the moment and I'm not sure he would brush aside the causes of those feelings as "just mafia things"

[heydude6]

You make a good point, dolores. Sometimes, I find your behavior overbearing, though. But, I do like that you are super dedicated and overall a fantastic player. You know what I mean?

I'm not Dolores, but we don't know what kinds of players we missed out on because they were scared away by our antics. Maybe we would have found other dedicated players if we could have gotten them to stick around as newbies.

Personally though, I don't think the issue is culture. I agree with the earlier sentiment that it probably is just a limitation of the format. Mafia is like D&D in that respect. Though you get an experience unlike any other, it's a big time investment from a large group of intelligent people which makes assembling a game tough. It will never grow to be as big as something accessible like an RTD.

On the bright side, Mafia doesn't lose anything from being played online.

[webadict]

That's true. The ability to receive criticism and give it are a structural necessity to the game, as well as a need for critical thinking to determine truth and lie in the game. This game has been known to stress people out to the point of anxiety attacks, but if that happens to them, I don't want it to be because of my behavior. It should only be because the game is itself stressful sometimes.

So, my personal goal will be to be a kinder Mafia player. I will avoid destructive criticism. I will continue to do my best. That's my Mafia New Year's Resolution.

I can't fully counter what dolores says, but environments become what people make them. Thus, if I want it to be a nice place, then I must make it one.

Maybe we should just open up a Beginner's Mafia now? Or even like a list that players could join so that if we have enough players, we can just run one? How can we get new players if they have nowhere to go?

[4maskwolf]

I think veteran players (and I’m looking at myself here especially) also need to have a little bit of discretion when it comes to participating in games run for newer players. The line between “modeling good play while actively participating” and “steamrolling people trying to figure out what’s going on” can be pretty thin at times. I still regret the BM a few years ago where dolores and I turned D1 into a veterans thunderdome while all the new players watched awkwardly from the sidelines. I’ve been a new player before, and I can’t imagine watching us throwing around meta reads and complicated play style-based analyses on D1 was especially enlightening to the fundamentals of the game.

[webadict]

I think veteran players (and I’m looking at myself here especially) also need to have a little bit of discretion when it comes to participating in games run for newer players. The line between “modeling good play while actively participating” and “steamrolling people trying to figure out what’s going on” can be pretty thin at times. I still regret the BM a few years ago where dolores and I turned D1 into a veterans thunderdome while all the new players watched awkwardly from the sidelines. I’ve been a new player before, and I can’t imagine watching us throwing around meta reads and complicated play style-based analyses on D1 was especially enlightening to the fundamentals of the game.

Hahaha, yeah, that makes some amount of sense. I think there's something to be said that being on the DF forums though that a lot of these players might be a little used to complicated things, but we could still give a bit of a barrier to it, in case they're not fully sure they believe they can match the same level of play. Heck, even some veterans don't have the same type of dedication, and might even prefer games like that!

[Vector]

Thank you for doing your reparative work, Webby.


I don't think we should have a no cursing clause, or even a "no personal attacks" clause.

Mostly, I think that part of the "lore" we should teach on the forum is a meta-game aspect: "You can be so intolerable in order to win one game that you harm your possibility of playing future games." If people quit, then you can't win. Note that clever gambits and pulling the wool over everyone's eyes usually make people want to play with you more. But we actually -- most of us -- can't hang everything we are at the door like a hat and just play. We have jobs, or kids, or midterms.

People usually think about banning things, but I would prefer to ask a different question: what game-playing skills are we missing out on due to a preference for blunt force? [1]

Here's another thing to consider: it's hard to have a meta-based playstyle if you keep chewing through players. Even if new people keep coming, you are actively harming your ability to gain skill in meta play.

I don't think issues with recruitment have anything to do with culture (and have elaborated as such before, though without checking it couldn't say if what I said was correct), but surely if you're trying to find long term active players based on the information set available to you, you should be catering to the kind of environment which would appeal to young!webadict, right?

Here's the thing, though: Webadict, or "webadick" as we used to call him unironically, took a long break. I had a period where I was playing seven active games at a time. I'm here right now even though most of my friends have left; many of them are still on the forum, but they don't want to play. NUKE is still here, Caz is here, Kashyyk is here, lots of people who I've played Mafia with. Around when I actually closed out Iron Diadem in 2014, there was a game so toxic that Toady had to step in, and 4mask asked us to calm it down. People said "no, it's just the culture."

And around then we started bleeding players, even though B12 as a whole never really started dying down until 2018. As I said in-thread, personally, I don't wanna be called "it." That's my line in the sand. Can I handle it? Yeah, of course I can. If you're the kind of person who gets called "it" in the internet, you're probably also regularly getting shit on in real life, say, by your boss at work, who has much more direct ability to influence your personal acquisition of food and shelter. I do want to say something here, though, which is that we frame this issue in terms of "people being thin-skinned" as opposed to "people exerting control over their personal environment when they can't exert control over their public one." If you have an ability to exert control over your public environment already, then this latter probably doesn't matter very much to you. Or you could just have a very different personality structure, idk & idc.

This could be outright coincidence, of course, and we're going to bleed people no matter what. Also, if my IRL friend group is any indicator, an event like a global pandemic makes some of us hunker down and avoid conflict, while others of us start thinking "hey, those raging assholes I used to play with on the internet really weren't so bad."


Referring back to [1], I'm interested in exploring whether I can play the game more efficiently and with less verbiage. I understand that this will make the game less miserable for others, but I also have relied on my ability to talk, and talk, and talk as a crutch since my very first game here (just look at this dang post!). The game will get stale for me unless I push myself with various forms of experimentation. Might as well.

[webadict]

Referring back to [1], I'm interested in exploring whether I can play the game more efficiently and with less verbiage. I understand that this will make the game less miserable for others, but I also have relied on my ability to talk, and talk, and talk as a crutch since my very first game here (just look at this dang post!). The game will get stale for me unless I push myself with various forms of experimentation. Might as well.

Vector, you got that right. Talking too much is a crutch. I think it's something I've even tried to get better at myself. Why many word when few do?

I don't think issues with recruitment have anything to do with culture (and have elaborated as such before, though without checking it couldn't say if what I said was correct), but surely if you're trying to find long term active players based on the information set available to you, you should be catering to the kind of environment which would appeal to young!webadict, right?

Here's the thing, though: Webadict, or "webadick" as we used to call him unironically, took a long break. I had a period where I was playing seven active games at a time. I'm here right now even though most of my friends have left; many of them are still on the forum, but they don't want to play. NUKE is still here, Caz is here, Kashyyk is here, lots of people who I've played Mafia with. Around when I actually closed out Iron Diadem in 2014, there was a game so toxic that Toady had to step in, and 4mask asked us to calm it down. People said "no, it's just the culture."

Yeah, I also got stabbed, so that definitely let me re-examine my life choices. There was a game where I yelled at Tiruin, the fucking nicest person around, where I knew I had to take a break from everything. She didn't deserve that.

Basically, I want people to join games because they like playing with me, not in spite of me. That's my end goal. And I hope it can be at least somewhat in range of everyone else's.

[Persus13]

Something important to note about the D&D comparison is people tend to emphasize the usage of safety tools and a session 0 a lot these days. If you're with a group of friends you may not need these things because you know your friends, but with a group of strangers, you absolutely need those things, because everyone comes in with different expectations. Changing those expectations while in a game where you're not sure if you can trust the people telling you what the expectations are is a bit of an issue. That's just my two cents though. Although in D&D its also easier to get people to talk about this kind of thing than read a long opening post about it though.

[Mephansteras]

This is good, I'm glad everyone is talking about things.

We definitely had this subforum basically die for a while, I think the culture we had going added to the natural stresses of mafia were a large part of that.

Is there anything you guys think I can do to help out?

[dolores]

I still regret the BM a few years ago where dolores and I turned D1 into a veterans thunderdome while all the new players watched awkwardly from the sidelines.

Do you mean my fourth game? That was after the extremely short reverse mafia then P25 and FBYOR2. There were two players who were new to mafia and everyone else had several times my level of experience. I haven't played any other BMs with you.

You know what I mean?

Maybe? I think that you think that I care. And I mean, that's not a secret. It's very obvious that insomuch as I am here, I care. I'm well beyond the point where I think I would have any second thoughts if I didn't care.

Spoiler: Not gonna lie this kind of low effort emotionally manipulative bullshit drag from in-thread to out-of-thread is pretty fucking frustrating. If you want to pick a fight in a game, pick a fight in the game. If you want to pick a fight out of the game, pick the fight out of the game. I get that going IC->OOC is the correct direction to go but keep this shit out of the thread what the fuck. (click to show/hide)

People usually think about banning things, but I would prefer to ask a different question: what game-playing skills are we missing out on due to a preference for blunt force? [1]

None, probably. Like, if you're asking about the possibility to emotionally manipulate low-investment players into throwing the game in your favor, ICT was already exploring that. Unsurprisingly, it's super strong, low-investment town players are scum's greatest ally. I'm sure you could get better at that, but like, why? Yes, if players on the town are going to throw the game, the game is going to get thrown. You can like, fight water with water, or you can look for games with people that don't mind just being wet.

Here's another thing to consider: it's hard to have a meta-based playstyle if you keep chewing through players. Even if new people keep coming, you are actively harming your ability to gain skill in meta play.

There's literally no reason to think that one thing or another is causing long-term active players to not join up. Nobody that's put a real substantial effort into the game has ever quit over any of the things that you've described in at least 3 years, and nobody that I can think of offhand in the last

As I said in-thread, personally, I don't wanna be called "it." That's my line in the sand. Can I handle it? Yeah, of course I can.

You're talking about trying to explore using soft power options but you haven't considered the soft power option of just being likeable enough that people would genuinely not want to offend you in the first place? Have you considered using your verbiage to position people so that they feel like it's not in their interest to talk shit?

I do want to say something here, though, which is that we frame this issue in terms of "people being thin-skinned" as opposed to "people exerting control over their personal environment when they can't exert control over their public one."

THIS IS THE PUBLIC ENVIRONMENT
I DO NOT NEED TO BE YOUR FRIEND TO PLAY MAFIA WITH YOU
IF SOMEONE SAID, "YOU HAVE TO BE VECTOR'S FRIEND TO PLAY MAFIA HERE"
I WOULD LEAVE
I do not think this sentiment is uncommon. I don't think most people would state it so unambiguously and there'd probably be some element of wistfulness or regret about the cruelness of the world or whatever.
I think that if the reverse of this sentiment were popular, you wouldn't be raising this concern.

Like, I don't think thin/thickskinnedness is a super useful concept, insults aren't a coherent category of action, etc., but that's another point and not very interesting.

If you have an ability to exert control over your public environment already, then this latter probably doesn't matter very much to you. Or you could just have a very different personality structure, idk & idc.

I'm glad you've put this here because I'm in a game with you and you've decided to pull this shit while the game is ongoing and I can't pull examples from the thread.
Why did you decide to so clearly state that you don't have any respect for me or intent to cater to my preference set? Do you think this will bring about the world you're hoping for?

There was a game where I yelled at Tiruin, the fucking nicest person around

Tiruin was/is a nasty piece of work but probably a good example of what I'm talking about positioning people with soft power so they don't talk shit about you even if you act like a complete cunt.

Basically, I want people to join games because they like playing with me, not in spite of me. That's my end goal.

Sure, but the kinds of people who want to joins with different kinds of people will vary.

[webadict]

I'm not here to pick a fight with you, dolores. I told you exactly what I thought about you to your face. I think that you are a good player but that your attitude is overbearing at times. That is all. This song isn't even really about you, but you might be in the background chorus of it. I don't mean any offense by it. If anything, I think you'd be probably the best player here by quite a sizable distance if you could channel that energy because you wouldn't give cause for people to immediately distance themselves from you.

Mafia is a game of logical, emotional, and social clues. You can win by using any one of these methods. I think you've mastered the logical aspects of the game. I think you still have a lot to learn about the other two, though. If you believe that's an attack on you, then I must have misspoken in some way and for that I do apologize. My goal is to emphasize that honey is a bigger motivator than vinegar.

If you do not truly care about that, then these words fall on deaf ears, and I will lament this alone. I plan to continue this discussion because I think that it's the best way forward for the Subforum. I want people to know my beliefs as they stand in the hopes that they could use my viewpoints to support or counter what should be done here.

[Vector]

I'm interested in making an environment where we can stand to be around each other in the long term. That is by no means the same thing as an offer of friendship.

I apologize for using the word "private" when I should have said "personal," as in, that this is a space we choose to be in for our free time, presumably our leisure time. It is not the street, where we are required to be while traversing between point A and point B, or the grocery store, or the bank, or school. Street harassment is, shall I say, a thing, and not generally a matter of likability. I'm not making this point for myself; I'm making it for the sake of our female-identified players, of whom we currently have a grand total of zero. For that reason, I will just say that you are missing the target and my personal likability is irrelevant to the situation I intended to discuss.

We may not share the same goals, but I am not required to share your goal, nor am I impeded from presenting my thinking in the public sphere.

I also wasn't actually trying to call you out personally. I'm talking about why I left. I didn't mention why I left when I left; I just left. I'm mentioning it right now because I'm having a good time playing and I am trying to think about how to get more people to stay and enjoy the game. I wanted to say that forum subculture had something to do with why I left because we then gain a data point: indeed, people have left due to our behavior. I think that my WoTing habits are not helping. You may disregard that data point at your leisure, but I don't apologize for presenting it.

I don't expect anyone to be sad that I'm not around. I do expect people to be sad that the subforum has gotten so small, so I expect that people care that I left in that our number of active players was decremented by 1, just as I hope that they care that, say, Org is gone. Org was a lousy player and I'm sorry he's not around.

If you would like me to be direct with you, Dolores, I think that your WoTing habits are also not helping, although I didn't call you out for them directly because we have historically treated WoTs as being intrinsically good play, and I didn't think that calling you out specifically would be appropriate. I'm not vaguebooking. A lot of players here through the years have made long posts the norm, including myself. Changing the norm starts with addressing the damage we have caused.

[Caz]

There was a game where I yelled at Tiruin, the fucking nicest person around

Tiruin was/is a nasty piece of work but probably a good example of what I'm talking about positioning people with soft power so they don't talk shit about you even if you act like a complete cunt.

Wow.