I don't think anyone is, specifically. It was a figure of speech...
...
I've not mastered anything by any measure, or I wouldn't be here, obviously.
Bay12 in general is a dead end for art, which I would claim is also obvious but that varies on your school of thought.
There's a point at which my focus on the only part of the game I find generalizeable will come at a detriment to my ability to compete in the game. I don't think we're anywhere near that yet. The only games I've been in where other elements play a large part are broadly without merit.
...
Org being around is bad for the longterm health of the subforum, and taints any game he touches. What's the point of playing mafia specifically if you're not going to take it seriously.
Ah, I made an unfair assumption. However, I do think you give yourself too little credit, but that's a bit of a moot point right now.
I think you and Vector have convinced me. I think you're right about Org. I had numerous contentious issues with them, and their flippant attitude towards the game was not helpful in the slightest. I'd be willing to take a harder stance against that behavior, since it certainly does feel negatively impactful on the metagame (We allow people like that to get away with outrageously disrupting behavior, and I disliked it.)
I read people's posts, old and new, because I'm curious about them as human beings. It's interesting to see how people work and try to see what's going on with them.
I also try to keep tabs on the gender makeup of the subforum because I've spent years in a profession which requires paying attention to how minority members of a social cohort are experiencing their environment, and then intervening as necessary to make the environment more inclusive. Indeed, no one can be certain of the gender of anyone here, but I do know that I initially presented as male in order to fit in, and that none of our current players publicly identify as female.
I am quite similar, actually, but my rationale behind it has changed over the years. I'd like this to be a welcome subforum with a dedicated base of players, and if we could find newer players that want to join us because they too are dedicated, I think that's overall an improvement. If we have to make some changes to the culture because of that so that minority members might feel more included... I'm actually very in favor of it, and we could only be better because of it. I think anyone that isn't in favor of it might be more of a toxic influence than not, and while we might lose their membership, it seems like a worthwhile investment overall, as a more positive culture would certainly make
me enjoy these games more.
The issue with Beginner's Mafia games isn't that they aren't good for teaching the basics (because they are), it's that they're not enticing to players. When the newbies spectate our games, they're more likely to be looking at the zany shenanigans of Mafiakart, or the perplexing puzzles of Bellsounder and Witches' Coven, not the 'you are a Vanilla Townie!' gameplay of the mountainous setups and Beginner's Mafia games. Which is why I like what I'm trying to accomplish with Mostly Vanilla Mafia, because it's simple enough to use as a teaching tool while still giving everyone a bit of power to make them feel special.
I think there are two ends to this spectrum. The wild and crazy setups certainly lessen the Day game impact, and the more vanilla setups focus almost entirely on it. But, the Day game is important. Perhaps there is a way to make an Power Role filled version of Beginner's Mafia? It doesn't seem impossible to me, and it'd allow for a BM that has a bit of both aspects. Puzzle games are an entirely different breed of game, though, and I don't think that could accurately be mimicked in a BM game. Your Mostly Vanilla Mafia has some benefits in this regard, and I'd be a bit interested in using a system like this in Mamobo, if you were interested in helping.
Well, mod-wise I think it's important that those of us running the game remember that the main point is that the game is interesting and engaging. Ideally fun, though mafia is a game that I find runs less to 'fun' and more towards 'mentally stimulating' for a lot of people. Which is fine, but I strive for my games to be both. I think I succeed more often than I fail, but I've definitely had failures in that regard.
I do think trying to expand our player base again would be good. Getting beginner games and whatnot running would be nice for that. And probably a few more vanilla-ish games that are easier for new people to jump into (we have some planned, yes). Bastard Paranormal and BYOR are neat, but I'd hate to be a new person in either of those.
On more of a Moderator level, I tend to be more hands-off, but that's partly because for a long time we've had a more contentious culture in this sub-forum and I didn't want to just drive everyone off by clamping down. Toady seems to have agreed with that approach for the most part, and this sub-forum is a bit less regulated than the rest of the forum. That may have been a mistake.
If we want to enforce some community guide-lines I'm happy to step in and do that with mod-edits and warnings and the like. We'd need people to specifically draw my attention to things, though, as there is no way I'm going to be able to read every single post in detail for that sort of thing. We'd also need to decide exactly what our standards are going to be.
NOTE: I am not against helping you with moderation should you ever feel the need. I actually nominated you to Toady for the Moderator position
specifically because I felt that you were very hands-off for the most part and that most people would believe you to be a very unbiased person should an argument break out and need resolution. I did not have the same faith in myself at that point.
I think you and hector13 are right, in that zealotry is probably not the way to go, but that as a community, we would need to strive for a better culture. It shouldn't rest on your back to solve all of our issues, and that's why I'm bringing this discussion up at all. That's why I trust a lot of what Vector says, as they have experienced a lot of our issues firsthand, and if they can give us insight into what we can all do better as a community, then we can be a more inclusive community. Those are not all of our issues, but it is something I think should be addressed while we discuss them.
Author
Topic: Banter Thread (Read 387819 times)