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[piecewise]

I'll just work on Oro for the moment.

In terms of Oro's mechanics, I've been thinking about how to handle characters and character progression. Character Classes seemed like a good idea because it made it immediately obvious what everyone was good at and constructing teams would be easier. But it was also very restrictive because I don't really want to do 20 different classes, mostly because they would be completely unbalanced and crap.

One thing I thought of that MIGHT work was the idea of "Limited Skill Trees"  Basically, we would have say, 3 skill trees: Melee, Ranged and Support, and each skill tree would have 3 levels, with higher levels having more powerful skills. Players could stat into any skill tree as they liked, but they could only ever stat into 3 levels at any one time. So someone could go jack of all trades and stat into level 1 of all three trees. Or they could do a focused build and do level 1-3 of melee. Or they could do a hybrid and do 1-2 of melee with lvl 1 of support, just for some healing and self buffing.

This could let players create more varied characters while still having skills and abilities clearly delineated. And it would work to let me do some sort of advancement that could carry over beyond death depending how deep characters got into the place. Like, once they reach a certain area all new characters start with x number of points to spend on advancement.

Any thoughts?

[Nikitian]

The only one of those that looks remotely interesting as a PW rtd is the crafting one.

...May I ask why?  Speaking as a Tinker addict, and a former Perplexicon player, crafting and complex systems in general are piecewise's weakest area, in my opinion.  His skill area is generally eldritch/creepy/creative world stuff.  I'm curious why you have the opposite impression.

Actually, even with this said, I'd still rather come to the opposite conclusion - despite Piecewise sometimes missing potential pitfalls, I'd say his crafting and complex systems are some of the most interesting things about his games. This might be because he's willing to go to such lengths in modelling them (allowing for aforementioned pitfalls, but also for a great amount of fun time to be had). So yeah, whatever game idea is chosen, I would very much love if it had (though open to abuse, munchkin heaven, whatever - syv would clearly disagree with me here, I guess) a complex and interesting "crafting" system in the vein of Tinker, Perplexicon magic, etc.

Anyway, what really sounded interesting to me was the Pacific Rim knock-off; not for the general idea, however, but - for something that was apparently not even intended as something of a main game feature - the specific "tag team" implication for players. I'm... not sure that just "having different players control different body parts" would have been as interesting, as I'm not talking about autonomy - but rather having the players clearly work as a team as a prerequisite (and not as a "desirable, but superfluous" thing as it was in ER). I do recall that at some point PW considered running an urban mecha-tank combat, with a couple of players running each tank - one being the driver, another the gunner, etc. - and while I'm not specifically that interested in that particular setting or game features, I think that central game idea of having players play in complete concert is worth considering. Not as "okay, I'm going north, you're going south, we try to flank it and hopefully one of us would succeed and kill it" - but rather as "my own and others survival depends on actions of each of us; I cannot just act on my own, run away or something - we survive or die as a team", a faithful crew simulator - be it a crew of a tank, a giant mecha, an airship, a starship, or maybe even a good old sailing ship or something.

(Then again, it may sound awesome to me, but it might be completely unviable as a basis for a forum game. I will defer the judgement to Piecewise himself.)
Edit: Ninja'd by Piecewise himself!

On mentioned ideas: I certainly do like the idea of moving the power level of starting players later in the game to accommodate general power progression of others (and lessen the too great difference between best veterans and completely new characters).

I'm not sure I like the "Limited Skill Trees" idea, though - partly because it seems somewhat hard to balance melee against all ranged options, and partly because I'm not sure it's a good idea to force such a restriction upon players. Still, as a way of creating modular classes system (and thus sidestepping the problem of coming up with distinct yet balanced classes otherwise), the idea is quite nice and actually very good, I think.

[Sean Mirrsen]

I'll just work on Oro for the moment.

In terms of Oro's mechanics, I've been thinking about how to handle characters and character progression. Character Classes seemed like a good idea because it made it immediately obvious what everyone was good at and constructing teams would be easier. But it was also very restrictive because I don't really want to do 20 different classes, mostly because they would be completely unbalanced and crap.

One thing I thought of that MIGHT work was the idea of "Limited Skill Trees"  Basically, we would have say, 3 skill trees: Melee, Ranged and Support, and each skill tree would have 3 levels, with higher levels having more powerful skills. Players could stat into any skill tree as they liked, but they could only ever stat into 3 levels at any one time. So someone could go jack of all trades and stat into level 1 of all three trees. Or they could do a focused build and do level 1-3 of melee. Or they could do a hybrid and do 1-2 of melee with lvl 1 of support, just for some healing and self buffing.

This could let players create more varied characters while still having skills and abilities clearly delineated. And it would work to let me do some sort of advancement that could carry over beyond death depending how deep characters got into the place. Like, once they reach a certain area all new characters start with x number of points to spend on advancement.

Any thoughts?

It could work, but only if having three level 1's is in any way comparable to having a level 3. As in, lessee... have you played Torchlight II? The special skill system in that is level-based, you only unlock abilities you have the level for, but there are no other restrictions. Most of the time, even though your high-level abilities are pretty awesome, you still find great use for the most basic ones you started out with, because they scale with your power level and tend to be the most-upgraded.

Basically, have the upper levels offer breadth as opposed to power, so that someone spreading his points around the lower levels doesn't become less powerful for it, just a different kind of versatile.

[piecewise]

Hmm good points. Balanced mechanics are hard.

As per reasons for melee vs ranged, Thats a hard one too. I suppose it makes sense for when enemies get right up in your grill. Or if ranged weapons don't do as much damage or are just slower, dark souls style.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Hmm good points. Balanced mechanics are hard.

As per reasons for melee vs ranged, Thats a hard one too. I suppose it makes sense for when enemies get right up in your grill. Or if ranged weapons don't do as much damage or are just slower, dark souls style.

Melee is useful because it's a different sort of mindset. It could be focused on speed, misdirection and precision, like you'd have for your (stereo)typical ninja. Make it so that melee skills specifically make it easier for the soldier to close distance and engage, as well as end the battle in one accurate stroke, and you basically have the ranged-counter you need, without nerfing ranged weapons.

[Corsair]

Hmm good points. Balanced mechanics are hard.

As per reasons for melee vs ranged, Thats a hard one too. I suppose it makes sense for when enemies get right up in your grill. Or if ranged weapons don't do as much damage or are just slower, dark souls style.

I like the idea of skill trees, but with only 3 levels in 3 trees we get a total of 9 distinct builds. (3,3,3,12,102,210,201,111) and nothing else so what about n levels in n skill trees (n = 5-7) with the additional trees being things like say stealth/infiltration, armour/defence and "control"(de-buff esssentially) so that characters can effectively build on three "axes" melee<->ranged, armour<->stealth & control<->support.

[syvarris]

@PW

Why would you need twenty classes?  Just make four or five.  Balance shouldn't be too difficult, partially because balance just matters less in a co-op game, and partially because you could make each class specialized, so that they're strong in certain scenarios, but weak in others.

The suggested flexible skill tree system is really just making four classes; three specialists, and a generalist.  Nine if you count half-specialists as seperate classes, which I wouldn't.  Why not just have four classes?  It's easier to balance, and simpler to understand.  Also, it makes having a leveling/progression system easier.

Finally, I think melee/ranged/support is a poor split.  Ranged and melee are both general combat, which makes it harder to really balance them unless their abilities are good against entirely different foes.  I'd suggest something like debuffers/fighters/healers.  First can't deal with groups, latter is worse against single targets than debuffers, healers obviously have to be supported.  Personally, I'd make there be more nuance than that; perhaps "debuffer" could be split into a magic class that can debuff groups too (but might be resisted), and an assassin who is really good at going toe-to-toe with a single target, but can't handle being mobbed; fighters could be split between defensively oriented knights, who are good at surviving and protecting allies, and all-out-damage zealots who are very good at spreading the pain around, but cannot defend themselves; healers... should probably be left alone, really, but they could be split between a strictly defensive healer class, and a more offensive buffing class.

Alternatively, design each class with glaring, crippling flaws, which must be covered by another class.  Assassins deal great damage, but can't defend themselves effectively.  Knights are great at defense, but will run out of HP eventually.  Healers can keep the knights topped off, but aren't doing much of anything offensively.  Expand as needed.


@Nik

I think I've gone over this with you, but I'm not saying the systems in PW games weren't fun, I'm saying they degraded the game.  In Perplexicon, it wasn't an issue, because it was a PvP game where everything was equal-opportunity brokeness.  Only the PvE suffered, and it was never really the focus.

But in ER?  Tinker was terrible.  Power creep did not improve the game for anyone, though it was fun to fuel.  Tinker was good as a flavor thing, and as a puzzle to solve, but the fact that it actually granted rewards was a significant flaw.

A crafting game is gonna have the same problem.  Either everything will be designed and roughly balanced beforehand (==never being finished), or people will break the system during gameplay.  It'll run into the same problem ER had, where actually being challenged by foes without them being arbitrarily powerful is nigh impossible.  Of course, if the meat of the game is just crafting, with any actual PvE challenge being a negligible part of thr game--Like Perplexicon--then it could work well.  I just don't think that's how it would work.

[piecewise]

@PW

Why would you need twenty classes?  Just make four or five.  Balance shouldn't be too difficult, partially because balance just matters less in a co-op game, and partially because you could make each class specialized, so that they're strong in certain scenarios, but weak in others.

The suggested flexible skill tree system is really just making four classes; three specialists, and a generalist.  Nine if you count half-specialists as seperate classes, which I wouldn't.  Why not just have four classes?  It's easier to balance, and simpler to understand.  Also, it makes having a leveling/progression system easier.

Finally, I think melee/ranged/support is a poor split.  Ranged and melee are both general combat, which makes it harder to really balance them unless their abilities are good against entirely different foes.  I'd suggest something like debuffers/fighters/healers.  First can't deal with groups, latter is worse against single targets than debuffers, healers obviously have to be supported.  Personally, I'd make there be more nuance than that; perhaps "debuffer" could be split into a magic class that can debuff groups too (but might be resisted), and an assassin who is really good at going toe-to-toe with a single target, but can't handle being mobbed; fighters could be split between defensively oriented knights, who are good at surviving and protecting allies, and all-out-damage zealots who are very good at spreading the pain around, but cannot defend themselves; healers... should probably be left alone, really, but they could be split between a strictly defensive healer class, and a more offensive buffing class.

Alternatively, design each class with glaring, crippling flaws, which must be covered by another class.  Assassins deal great damage, but can't defend themselves effectively.  Knights are great at defense, but will run out of HP eventually.  Healers can keep the knights topped off, but aren't doing much of anything offensively.  Expand as needed.


@Nik

I think I've gone over this with you, but I'm not saying the systems in PW games weren't fun, I'm saying they degraded the game.  In Perplexicon, it wasn't an issue, because it was a PvP game where everything was equal-opportunity brokeness.  Only the PvE suffered, and it was never really the focus.

But in ER?  Tinker was terrible.  Power creep did not improve the game for anyone, though it was fun to fuel.  Tinker was good as a flavor thing, and as a puzzle to solve, but the fact that it actually granted rewards was a significant flaw.

A crafting game is gonna have the same problem.  Either everything will be designed and roughly balanced beforehand (==never being finished), or people will break the system during gameplay.  It'll run into the same problem ER had, where actually being challenged by foes without them being arbitrarily powerful is nigh impossible.  Of course, if the meat of the game is just crafting, with any actual PvE challenge being a negligible part of thr game--Like Perplexicon--then it could work well.  I just don't think that's how it would work.

Yeah...

I'm reading through a lot of systems right now, thinking about the best way to handle combat such that it doesn't become a slog.

What did you guys think of the New ER system for combat? Ignoring the health system.


As per the crafting thing; clearly what I need to do is forget the shop thing and just throw you all onto a junkyard and let you fight among each other, perplexicon style. I'd look forward to the first one who builds a plane.

[piecewise]

Lets see...if I wanted to  build a plane I'd need a metal working station, something to heat up and reform metal. Probably use a ceramic crucible, a few heating coils, handful of capacitors crafted into a capacitor bank and an extension cord for the power...maybe hook that up to a battery or an electric generator. Circuit board and LCD for display and control of the thing...

Yeah...then a lot of aircraft aluminum...

[spazyak]

Or a lot of plywood and balsa wood, a 2 cylendar engine, some fabric, nails, some aluminum or wood to be shaped into propellar, some aluminum piping, and rope

[Ozarck]

Spoiler: Minor point of order (click to show/hide)

 the 3 stat, three level thing provides for ten end points.

300
030
003
210
201
120
102
021
012
111

I was more or less okay with the New ER combat system.

Also, who the fuck needs an lcd to build a plane? all you need is an eight horsepower engine, weighing under 500 pounds, a couple wheels, a bunch of light wood, and a bunch of fabric. Oh, and a propeller. You could probably get sufficient engines out of any junkyard, but if you need to build hte engine, well, then you need your little metal workshop. Otherwise a barn and a standard set of handyman tools will do.

dang it spaz, I was already saying that!

[Xantalos]

The main reason I'm neutral on the crafting systems is that I'm awful at using them
There'd be people building planes and shit all over the place, but I'd be the guy who strapped a rock to a stick and snuck around killing people while they were absorbed in their crafting process.

[spazyak]

For tools, you just need a wrench andma screw driver to connect the pipe to the engine. For nails you could use the fry method

[Xantalos]

...if you hit a person at the base of the jaw in the correct spot you can drop them pretty easily due to whacking a nerve cluster there. Primarily a nonlethal strike given the easy availability of the trachea if you're trying to kill them.

I know things too kinda

[Egan_BW]

As per the crafting thing; clearly what I need to do is forget the shop thing and just throw you all onto a junkyard and let you fight among each other, perplexicon style. I'd look forward to the first one who builds a plane.

Did you say "Perplexicon style"? hypehypehype