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[Radio Controlled]

I know its not possible to buy rechargeable manipulator batteries... but can you buy a sort of replacement license where you can trade them in for a fresh one every time you deplete it?

At the moment, no, there is no such thing.

[Nikitian]

Well, so far no one has ever run out of FM battery charges... And even then, given they are interchangeable, and cost exactly three tokens each, you could buy an MFM and have it for free. Or even, if your old battery still has a few charges, trade it and that spare MFM to a new guy and get 1-2 tokens. Everyone is happy: you got a discounted battery, the new guy got a discounted MFM, inter-character economy grows, and the AM now has two people likely to buy a spare FM battery instead of one. Coolio!

What would be really nice to have a license for free refill/to refill at discounted price is the Advanced kit. Unlike the basic Emergency kit that gets refilled for 1 token (as far as I know), the only person who ever got to refill the Advanced kit at a discounted price was Faith who practically solicited it from the AM, and only for a meagre discount of two tokens (out of seven) IIRC.

[Unholy_Pariah]

Yeah, but having a certificate that enables you to claim a free battery each mission would really help to bring automanipulator weaponry into the realm of practicality.

[Radio Controlled]

Yeah, but having a certificate that enables you to claim a free battery each mission would really help to bring automanipulator weaponry into the realm of practicality.

I don't think automanips were ever meant to be very practical infantry tools. In universe, because they're expensive resource-wise, and for the game because they require no rolls.

[Unholy_Pariah]

You only think that because you've never taken the time to consider their vast potential.

And why wouldnt they work in game?
Sure they dont require rolls, but like you said they are more expensive because of it.

And whats to say it wont require rolls anyway?
Plasma projectors utilize automanips and you still need to roll for them.

[Radio Controlled]

You only think that because you've never taken the time to consider their vast potential.

And why wouldnt they work in game?
Sure they dont require rolls, but like you said they are more expensive because of it.

Not practical = not cost effective, or too dangerous to handle, or something else. Remember, as they are, they cost a lot to do extremely specific things only a few times. I never said they could't possibly be useful, but saying that is different from proposing a new mechanic to make them more token efficient (after all, their in-universe resource cost would still be the same).

For comparison, the universal manip also has 'vast potential', but people don't use it due to cost, and we wouldn't give them to every npc recruit either for the same reason.

[Xantalos]

Doesn't Miyamoto himself have a universal manip?
People use it, it's just that all our manipulator users keep on exploding.

[Execute/Dumbo.exe]

I think there is a pretty nicely defined setup for each weapons inherent risk to use, in about the order of Automanips (Like the Passive Field Projector), No Weapons, Paralysis grenades, Rifles and melee weapons, Explosives (Including the Tesla projector), Manips and then finally Amps.

As you can see there, each increase in inherent risk (Like using in a situation with no contested rolls, bonuses or maluses) carries with it an increase in either efficiency, power or adaptability, so for something with absolutely no inherent risk (Automanips) it must be bad in some way, price, adaptability, anything.

[Radio Controlled]

Doesn't Miyamoto himself have a universal manip?
People use it, it's just that all our manipulator users keep on exploding.

Yes, that's the point. It's powerful and versatile, but expensive. Should we then lower it in price or invent a new rule so more people can use it, or keep it as it is with it's current balancing?

[Unholy_Pariah]

Your preconceptions are blinding you from my point.
I have never said, nor do i intend to, that universal manipulstors should be cheap.

The potential of automanipulators comes not from big expensive powers, but from simple reliable actions which can be taken advantage of via cunning utilizations and not accidentally levelling a city and killing all your teammates because you did something daft and summoned a sun on your bestest buddies favorite grenade.

[Radio Controlled]

Your preconceptions are blinding you from my point.
I have never said, nor do i intend to, that universal manipulstors should be cheap.

You only think that because you've never taken the time to consider their vast potential.

Yeah, but having a certificate that enables you to claim a free battery each mission would really help to bring automanipulator weaponry into the realm of practicality.

Automanips have vast potential you say. Yet, currently almost nobody uses them because they are too expensive. For this, you propose a new mechanic to 'make them more practical' (aka cheaper).

So, you want to take something that has a lot of potential or reliability (which is currently ofset by its cost) and make it cheap. Is that in principle not equivalent to, for example, making the universal manip (an object of vast potential usability, but expensive) cheaper?

[Unholy_Pariah]

That isnt what im saying at all.

I dont want manipulators to be cheaper, i want a way to get more batteries at a lower cost to make up for the fact that there are no rechargeable batteries, and because a lot of the more useful effects drain batteries quite quickly.

Also the universal is expensive, but can do literally anything and can take multiple missions to drain with constant use because of its reliance on mind points and its higher than average mental drain.
An automanipulator is expensive, can only do one thing and can drain itself dry in as little as one or two turns depending on the effect.

Say the certificate costs 15 tokens and batteries can only be traded in once depleted.
Someone with a universal manipulator and a certificate would take 10-15 missions minimum to break even,  someone with a defensive automanipulator however would start saving money after the fifth.

[Unholy_Pariah]

On an unrelated note, is anyone on mission considering buying a synthbody?

[Radio Controlled]

I dont want manipulators to be cheaper, i want a way to get more batteries at a lower cost to make up for the fact that there are no rechargeable batteries, and because a lot of the more useful effects drain batteries quite quickly.

Call me crazy, but I already account for ammo cost when determining how expensive something is. Getting cheaper batteries thus equals cheapening the whole 'package' (manip+batteries).

Let us say for a moment that the 'value' of a a tool is weighed by its utility (raw power, versatility, ease of use,whatever I missed) divided by token cost. As such, every item has a certain value, and some things offer more bang for your buck.

Now, if you want to claim that automanips are too expensive for what they offer (aka the large reliability isn't enough to warrant its cost, compared to other items) then that is something that might hold water. However, the easy way to solve this would be to simply lower its cost, instead of inventing convoluted new mechanics to make up for it.

Also note that is purely from a balance standpoint. If there are good reasons in game for why automanips are so expensive for what utility they offer, and pw wants to ensure this stays reflected in their token cost, then they are priced exactly as they should be.

A big reason for their high cost in game is the fact that each one must be custom made. Perhaps if people could agree on a list of automanips they really want, then those could be mass produced and have decreased cost due to economies of scale.

[Harry Baldman]

Call me crazy, but I already account for ammo cost when determining how expensive something is. Getting cheaper batteries thus equals cheapening the whole 'package' (manip+batteries).

Let us say for a moment that the 'value' of a a tool is weighed by its utility (raw power, versatility, ease of use,whatever I missed) divided by token cost. As such, every item has a certain value, and some things offer more bang for your buck.

Now, if you want to claim that automanips are too expensive for what they offer (aka the large reliability isn't enough to warrant its cost, compared to other items) then that is something that might hold water. However, the easy way to solve this would be to simply lower its cost, instead of inventing convoluted new mechanics to make up for it.

Also note that is purely from a balance standpoint. If there are good reasons in game for why automanips are so expensive for what utility they offer, and pw wants to ensure this stays reflected in their token cost, then they are priced exactly as they should be.

A big reason for their high cost in game is the fact that each one must be custom made. Perhaps if people could agree on a list of automanips they really want, then those could be mass produced and have decreased cost due to economies of scale.

The problem with automanipulators, as far as I can tell, is not exactly the expense in itself, but the fact that they require ammo in the first place and can run out, thus giving neurotic people such as myself misgivings about investing money into them. Hence why U_P is offering the possibility of paying 15 tokens for unlimited ammo refills when it's likely he'll never need any automanipulator that many times. It's the psychological factor that matters.

Also, pretty sure everyone wants the one that stops bullets and the one that stops unreasonable heating of the body. Maybe one that acts like a kinetic parachute, though that might just be me.