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[XXSockXX]

Oh man, this thread moves fast.

We seem to slowly be driving all Russian guys from this thread... Could we somehow transport Crimea to Bay12?

Yeah, I hope the Russian guys don't leave, we may not agree with them and sometimes misunderstand them, but I'm interested in their point of view too. We are not solving any real world conflicts in this thread anyway, so we might as well learn something from each other. It's different to hear from actual individuals than through the filter of journalists and such.
I'm very much with you on the whole bridging the divide between Russia and the West thing, at least in spirit. In practice I'm not sure how to accomplish that, much smarter people than me have tried and failed. It is one of the most important geopolitical challenges of this century.
Might of course be a German thing to think like that, we have made peace with neighbours and internal divisions a lot since WW2.

Generally I understand that Russia feels threatened if all their neighbours join NATO, which used to be an anti-Soviet alliance. On the other hand what is happening now makes us all glad we have NATO. That is pretty much the dilemma we are working with.

[Sheb]

I also don't think Russia should have a veto over who can or cannot join NATO, whether they like it or not.

[GlyphGryph]

Hmm... I am getting fuck out of this thread. While some guys are nice, others are vehement beyond point of my tolerance. I don't even remember last time being called a shit so openly be it direct or indirect.

Even though I've found you a stubborn and infuriating jerk at times, I do actually hope you stay. I want you to actually contribute in a meaningful way, and as much as our particular attitudes are likely to crash, your input is still valuable.

I also don't think Russia should have a veto over who can or cannot join NATO, whether they like it or not.

If they want people to stop joining NATO, they should probably stop driving people into NATO's arms. I guess it's a bit late for that, though.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Funniest thing is that Ukrainians were very "we should remain neutral and NATO brings many problems" Russian army in Crimea changed that in one day

[moocowmoo]

To the Russians I just want to say that here in America our propaganda machine is working full steam to paint them as evil. The news coverage is blatantly manipulative (but what's new?). That may account for some of the hostility seen in this thread.

[GrizzlyAdamz]

Morally you can't really fault Crimea for doing exactly what the current Ukrainian government did.

I think most of the fault is found specifically in Crimea not being allowed to do anything.

Huh missed that edit.
Yeah, it isn't Crimea that's trying to do this, it's Russia. The referendum and the 'Crimean parliament' that's organized it are illegitimate, as in Russia orchestrated every part via force of arms.

[Mephansteras]

"The only thing evil needs to succeed, is for the good guys to do nothing"
-not me

The thing is, there is no good guys. There is only evil and lesser evil. 

In power? Maybe not. But there ARE good guys, and when there aren't we need to become them, because even if we can't make the people in power be "good", we can shape a society that requires good behaviour of them to become successful.

Things can get better over time, and they have! In so many ways. But it's not a guarantee, and it will last only as long as people are fighting for it.

[JOKE]
  Clearly the answer is for Bay12 to run a Kickstarter Campaign to send MaximumZero and a bunch of equipment over to Ukraine so that UkraineRanger can be trained up as a real life Batman!
[/JOKE]

In all seriousness, yeah, reforms like this take a long time and people dedicated to making their country better. Especially if doing so doesn't involve any real personal gain for themselves. It is very difficult to do and few people have both the skills and determination to do it. But get enough leaders like that and enough people rallying behind them and some very good things can be accomplished.

[XXSockXX]

Funniest thing is that Ukrainians were very "we should remain neutral and NATO brings many problems" Russian army in Crimea changed that in one day

That is very understandable.
Some people here think that it was a mistake to try to bring Ukraine closer to NATO and the EU, at least in such an exclusive way. That does not mean Russia gets a say in these matters, but rather that Ukraine could have served as a bridge between Europe and Russia, with close economical and cultural ties to both, with the ultimate goal of also bringing Russia closer to Europe. Of course now it might be too late for such ideas, at least for years.

[Knit tie]

Well, I'm definitely not a good guy, seeing how I drove that poor guy out of here.

Well, damn.

What should I do now?

[Darvi]

Deliberate for a few minutes if that's worth killing yourself over, decide it's not, and then get back to business?

[kaian-a-coel]

Cynicism or not, that is how the things are, and always were.

My point stands.

I do note, however, that you did not add "and always will be". Make that what you will.

In all seriousness, yeah, reforms like this take a long time and people dedicated to making their country better. Especially if doing so doesn't involve any real personal gain for themselves. It is very difficult to do and few people have both the skills and determination to do it. But get enough leaders like that and enough people rallying behind them and some very good things can be accomplished.

Never said, or thought, it would be easy. Yeah, big changes are hard, very hard. Doesn't mean that we shouldn't do it.

[Knit tie]

Well, now I feel genuinely bad.

But yes, most of us feel threatened by NATO, and that's why even some of the more liberal people support the invasion. I've heard one of my friends, a professor, gve a lengthy speech about how we "need to protect our interests" in Crimea.

[olemars]

Maybe we should have told Russia that the true main purpose of NATO is to keep the members from attacking each other. Peace through not knowing how to switch the damn shared datalink off. Incidentally, the Russian Navy will be protecting the motherland from the NATO menace with NATO ships later this year.

[XXSockXX]

It probably should have been tried to merge NATO and the Warsaw Pact, but it never came to that and with the distrust on both sides we fell back into old patterns pretty quickly.

[Knit tie]

It's honestly very sad, you know? Wonderfully educated, good-natured, kind people calling each other scum just because some hate NATO more than Putn and vice versa. I am saying this because two of my friends just had a shouting match about whether the Ukrainian protesters are "degenerates", and the one who supported the Maidan very quickly switched from defending the ukrainians to insulting Putin. Her opponent started doing the same, but with Europe and the USA. They ended spilling their drinks on each other, and the anti-ukrainian is now having a hate smoke outside.

Why this shallowness and rigidity of mind? They both read philosophy and Bulgakov. Why do they still think that all ukrainians are with the USA and all russians are with Putin?