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[Frumple]

I do not. I don't even vote. Should I hang myself now? It's a different mentality, I just live. There are people who want fight corruption and they do. Why you are so determined that society must be politicaly active? Is it some requirement to be a human being or something?

It's... kind of a requirement for a functioning society, yes. The more people that are aware of and active in regards to what their country is doing, generally the less likely said country is going to go off the metaphorical rails. If you do not invest yourself in your country, you lose it, one way or another.

Bit back in the discussion, but is it wrong to be somewhat confused by how different a message this post and and this one gives? Gogis says no decline, ivze says steady, nearly omnipresent erosion. From same nation, even, but very different views.

I'm kinda sad about the way the Ukrainian government seems to have been totally sidelined in the recent stuff. You only hear about the EU, US and Russia hashing it out, like we're at the congress of Vienna again.

What can the Ukrainian government actually do at this point?

[Sheb]

I think one post was referring to now and another to the 90's.

[GrizzlyAdamz]

snip

I do not. I don't even vote. Should I hang myself now? It's a different mentality, I just live. There are people who want fight corruption and they do. Why you are so determined that society must be politicaly active? Is it some requirement to be a human being or something? You know, Russia is exactly how it's described. Sleeping bear. You not poke it - everything is fine. Poke it too much and it's explode in blood fury.

Welp, as they say, you reap what you sow.

[Helgoland]

Sheb, don't underestimate Merkel. Do you know Yes Minister? The answer to "Which side is Merkel on?" is "The winning side." Die eiserne Kanzlerin, the only German politician in a hundred years who understands Realpolitik like the original. She's being pushed by the German NIMBY faux-pacifism; you shouldn't think she's weak because of that. She'll show him the instruments.

And yeah, Brandt is famous for his Ostpolitik, and Helmut Schmidt (the current German Übervater, the elder statesman, and one of my favorite politicians) continued that. Keep in mind though that Schmidt pushed through the NATO double-track decision against heavy domestic resistance, essentially following the principles I outlined a few pages ago: Holding the line, but extending a hand.

And sure, what ivse said is right. It's also right that the right to self-determination of Russia's neighbors is non-negotiable. So we need to get Russia to become comfortable with that right, otherwise things'll go down a very bad path.

gogis: Look up the etymology of the word 'idiot'. (I'm serious, not trying to insult you here.) There's a reason the Athenians thought so little of these people. If too many become apathetic, the ruling class can do what it wants. And that is generally not what you want.

[PanH]

I think one post was referring to now and another to the 90's.

Also, it's not like everyone (or even anyone) in a country can actually describe this country's situation. Things can be quite heterogenous, and not everyone is an expert.

[gogis]

I do not. I don't even vote. Should I hang myself now? It's a different mentality, I just live. There are people who want fight corruption and they do. Why you are so determined that society must be politicaly active? Is it some requirement to be a human being or something?

It's... kind of a requirement for a functioning society, yes. The more people that are aware of and active in regards to what their country is doing, generally the less likely said country is going to go off the metaphorical rails. If you do not invest yourself in your country, you lose it, one way or another.

Key words here is "The more people that are aware of and active". Blatantly attack person for passive political POV is insanely intolerant. So we kinda fight gays and it's troubling, but when I say it's ok to be unpolitical it's suddenly raises questions. I am not obliged to be active in politics and not going to change my mind because some person says I am naughty and I am doomed. 

Bit back in the discussion, but is it wrong to be somewhat confused by how different a message this post and and this one gives? Gogis says no decline, ivze says steady, nearly omnipresent erosion. From same nation, even, but very different views.

It means literately nothing. Maybe he is in depression. Wages rised tenfold, I have no problems to find a job. I don't see anything really bad, aside from the fact everybody now perceive us a pricks.

[Knit tie]

Bit back in the discussion, but is it wrong to be somewhat confused by how different a message this post and and this one gives? Gogis says no decline, ivze says steady, nearly omnipresent erosion. From same nation, even, but very different views.

Not at all. I assure you, this division of views is absolutely normal in Russia. Also, I'd like to mention how ivze's posts demonstrate the pervasiveness of antagonistic nationalism and the "enemy mentality" in Russia.

I do not. I don't even vote. Should I hang myself now? It's a different mentality, I just live. There are people who want fight corruption and they do. Why you are so determined that society must be politicaly active? Is it some requirement to be a human being or something? You know, Russia is exactly how it's described. Sleeping bear. You not poke it - everything is fine. Poke it too much and it's explode in blood fury.

Last time I checked, refusal to let yourself be treated like cattle was a necessary part of a human psyche. Otherwise, you are just shit.

Here's a good quote from my grandfather, who fought against Stalin's regime, which was, by the way, quite a bit more hardcore than the current one: "If you don't try to fix all the shit that surrounds you and instead just sit in it doing nothing, you have no fucking right to complain".

And the classis one: "You don't deserve freedom unless you are willing to fight for it".


EDIT: Gogis, are you by chance from Moscow?

[Sheb]

Yeah, I have deep respect for Merkel, at least Foreign policy-wise (I haven't paid that much attention to internal German stuff), even if I'd prefer a more pro-active Germany soemtimes.

As XXSockXX said, you need to keep talking in these situations. If anything, the kind of "Good Cop, Bod Cop" routine we have with the US and Eastern European pushing for sanction and Germany holding the phone is probably the best we could do.

[Frumple]

Blatantly attack person for passive political POV is insanely intolerant. So we kinda fight gays and it's troubling, but when I say it's ok to be unpolitical it's suddenly raises questions. I am not obliged to be active in politics and not going to change my mind because some person says I am naughty and I am doomed.

Well, it's not so much naughty or doomed as it is that (political) apathy is as much an enemy of your state as actively working against it. And... yeah, that's a vice, so long as you live in society. It's a particular sort of not caring that hurts the people around you.

Which is also why other people in society may -- fairly -- attack that behavior and specifically note it as something bad. It is. It hurts others as much as the self, and it does hurt both. Doesn't necessarily mean the person is a bad person on the net, or anything, but it's definitely not a neutral or positive position to hold, and it's a position that anyone that wants society as a whole (either particular national or regional incarnations, or globally) to improve (or, at the very least, maintain the status quo), would reasonably be opposed to.

In other words, it's behavior that people should be intolerant of, just like more active forms of damage. A person is spoke ill of if they, though they could prevent it, just watch as a child runs into traffic. To the extent that person has a responsibility to stop that child, they also have a similar (if somewhat less pressing, of course) responsibility to involve themselves in the political process. Apathy stops being neutral when it starts causing the overall situation to grow worse.

[GrizzlyAdamz]

EDIT: Gogis, are you by chance from Moscow?

Yeah, but pointedly asking where someone's from is kinda...not conducive to an 'unbiased' discussion. Call it a pet peeve, but I don't agree with just asking that, kinda rude.

Also, calling someone shit isn't nice. For the record.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

gogis, I am finding your words "I am not politically active" IN a politics related thread quite strange.

That means that either you :

A) are a hypocrite and not voting is your political choice because you support the current system don't want to change but have no guts to take responsibility of all Putin's actions (while voting for Putin or doing else to support him will put responsibility on you)

OR
B) you are admitting that you are arguing about the subject you know very little about.
If I am not interested in coding I am not going to the nearby thread to participate in coding related discussions

[Mephansteras]

Sheb, don't underestimate Merkel. Do you know Yes Minister? The answer to "Which side is Merkel on?" is "The winning side." Die eiserne Kanzlerin, the only German politician in a hundred years who understands Realpolitik like the original. She's being pushed by the German NIMBY faux-pacifism; you shouldn't think she's weak because of that. She'll show him the instruments.

Great, now I'm picturing Merkel as Dr. Vahlen.

[GrizzlyAdamz]

B) you are admitting that you are arguing about the subject you know very little about.
If I am not interested in coding I am not going to the nearby thread to participate in coding related discussions

To be fair, discussing it is part of getting involved in it. I wouldn't discourage his being here, (even if one doesn't agree with his views), because if he listens to us we'll be contributing to his apathy.
Not to confuse discouraging his presence with voicing our opposition to what he says.

[Knit tie]

EDIT: Gogis, are you by chance from Moscow?

Yeah, but pointedly asking where someone's from is kinda...not conducive to an 'unbiased' discussion. Call it a pet peeve, but I don't agree with just asking that, kinda rude.

I am sorry, I overreacted. I try to keep myself calm, but, you know, I've got emotional investment in this whole situation on par with Avis, Gogis and UR, too.

And while you are right and I shouldn't have asked this, I would like to say that Moscow is the absolute richest and most developed part of Russia, and if Gogis is from there, it would explain nicely why he stated to have not encountered the widespread poverty and human rights abuse that is prevalent in the more backwards parts of the country. 

[nenjin]

B) you are admitting that you are arguing about the subject you know very little about.
If I am not interested in coding I am not going to the nearby thread to participate in coding related discussions

To be fair, discussing it is part of getting involved in it. I wouldn't discourage his being here, (even if one doesn't agree with his views), because if he listens to us we'll be contributing to his apathy.
Not to confuse discouraging his presence with voicing our opposition to what he says.

Likewise, despite him stating he is a-political, I crave all viewpoints on this situation from people in the region. Even ones I may disagree with. Because it's really the tapestry of beliefs, allegiances, prejudices and fears that is driving this whole mess. Even if we Westerns are ultimately powerless to make the situation better for anyone, the very least we can do is learn from it.

Anyways, right now I feel like this has become a game of chicken. It's a matter of who will move first. I don't think it will be Russia. I believe it will ultimately come down to the Western Ukrainian going "Ok, who will go with us to reclaim Crimea" and finding no takers from the US or Europe, at which point they will agree not to interfere in the new Crimean government/annexation. I don't believe Russia will fire on Ukrainian military bases, either. I think they'll just blockade them until the soldiers inside either starve for their country or withdraw. They're in operational control and they have supply lines, they can simply wait out the Ukrainian soldiers.

If Syria wasn't enough to motivate Obama and other powers to act, I highly doubt violence in the Ukraine will unless it comes from the mobilized Russian army. Sending troops into the Middle East than Europe is different....but is the same potential geopolitical powder keg in the end. So I have no doubt the US will err on the side of non-violence. Because no side is really infallible in this issue, and everyone's raison d'etat is a little compromised. What is driving this is majority wishes and little else. In the past when you overthrew a government and a region decided to consolidate its authority separate from the new regime....there'd be another war to decide who had the right to do what in the first place. Here? In this day and age? Morally you can't really fault Crimea for doing exactly what the current Ukrainian government did.