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[burningpet]

BUT, and that but is very important, there is a pretty steep rise in anti-immigrants, anti-semitics, very close to being neo-nazis, powers all through out europe. looking at places like greece, france, hungary, and with italy and spain slowly joining them, ignoring it is taking the role of an ostrich and sticking your head in the ground.

Ironically, I'm pretty sure far right movements are stronger in France and the like than in Ukraine.

I gave france as an example of where its starting to go out of hand. and its not ironic, its sad, well, for france and the world anyway.

immigration to israel numbers are starting to resemble the russian immigration wave. they are no where as near, but they gradually climbing. also, that immigration cause france to bleed out money. a lot of money.

[XXSockXX]

BUT, and that but is very important, there is a pretty steep rise in anti-immigrants, anti-semitics, very close to being neo-nazis, powers all through out europe. looking at places like greece, france, hungary, and with italy and spain slowly joining them, ignoring it is taking the role of an ostrich and sticking your head in the ground.

Well, I think we are aware of that, but it's not something that directly ties into the events in Ukraine. There are some worrying develpoments in some European countries, though overall I don't think you should compare these parties to Neo-Nazis. Depends on which country we're talking about, but it's not as bad as you think, at least not everywhere. Anyway, that's too complex an issue to be debated here.

but i also think everyone here should adopt a more critical and emotional free perspective on the west.

I, and I'm sure many others here, do have a critical perspective of the West. I have differentiated views on many things, but it is - with the limitations of an internet forum - very difficult to voice differentiated views on anything, when people tend to pop in to say "The West/Putin is evil/Hitler". So, I don't think that's good, but it is how it is with internet debates.

[10ebbor10]

BUT, and that but is very important, there is a pretty steep rise in anti-immigrants, anti-semitics, very close to being neo-nazis, powers all through out europe. looking at places like greece, france, hungary, and with italy and spain slowly joining them, ignoring it is taking the role of an ostrich and sticking your head in the ground.

Ironically, I'm pretty sure far right movements are stronger in France and the like than in Ukraine.

I gave france as an example of where its starting to go out of hand. and its not ironic, its sad, well, for france and the world anyway.

immigration to israel numbers are starting to resemble the russian immigration wave. they are no where as near, but they gradually climbing. also, that immigration cause france to bleed out money. a lot of money.

I'm pretty sure that their 75% tax policy on the rich also might have something to do with that. After all, far right isn't that strong, even in France.

[Darvi]

when people tend to pop in to say "The West/Putin is evil/Hitler".

Hitler is evil!

[mainiac]

Georgia was called fascist back when Russia was invading them.  Funny how countries have a habit of turning fascist just when Russia invades them.

[burningpet]

BUT, and that but is very important, there is a pretty steep rise in anti-immigrants, anti-semitics, very close to being neo-nazis, powers all through out europe. looking at places like greece, france, hungary, and with italy and spain slowly joining them, ignoring it is taking the role of an ostrich and sticking your head in the ground.

Ironically, I'm pretty sure far right movements are stronger in France and the like than in Ukraine.

I gave france as an example of where its starting to go out of hand. and its not ironic, its sad, well, for france and the world anyway.

immigration to israel numbers are starting to resemble the russian immigration wave. they are no where as near, but they gradually climbing. also, that immigration cause france to bleed out money. a lot of money.

I'm pretty sure that their 75% tax policy on the rich also might have something to do with that. After all, far right isn't that strong, even in France.

Except that a lot of them keep their business running in france and keep paying french taxes. also, keep in mind that houses and the cost of living in israel is very high. i would take an uneducated guess and say its higher than in france.

(Edit - that uneducated guess turned out wrong. on average, the cost of living is higher in france in many respects)

Beside, people state anti-semitism rise as the number one factor of considering immigration to israel in polls. you might not believe them, but those are the polls.

[Sheb]

Yeah, France did have some worrying stuff one the anti-semitism front recently, with humorist Dieudonné and his "anti-sionist party". Basically, he invented a gesture that is supposed to be anti-system, and then the medias and government went into berserk mode, banning it everywhere, firing kids who did it in school etc etc. Of course, it only gave him more publicity than he ever would have.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

people state anti-semitism rise as the number one factor of considering immigration to israel in polls.

Are you sure that the only source of anti-semitism  in France are right-wing parties and not Arabs that immigrate to France don't add to that?

BTW, extremist right-wingers appear exactly because more moderate guys were unable to stop immigration waves coming to France.
Also, EU is outrageously bad in dealing with neo-nazi teenagers

[XXSockXX]

Beside, people state anti-semitism rise as the number one factor of considering immigration to israel in polls. you might not believe them, but those are the polls.

I've heard that too. However, if you want a differentiated view, especially in France but in other Western European countries as well, anti-semitism is a problem that is only to a lesser degree caused by far-right parties, but mostly by parts of the muslim immigrant population.
Dieudonne, the comedian Sheb mentioned, is African, so he isn't part of any traditionally nationalist group.

Still, this doesn't relate to Ukraine really, so maybe we should keep it more on topic.

[mainiac]

Beside, people state anti-semitism rise as the number one factor of considering immigration to israel in polls. you might not believe them, but those are the polls.

Considering nearly half of immigrants to Israel come from Russia (with v. tolerant USA in second), that would seem to say a lot about Russia.

[Sheb]

I think he was referring to migrants from France.

But yeah, actually I think Israel, with its stupid dual obsession on defining itself as "the Jewish state" and occupying Palestine is the leading cause of antisemitism worldwide. A lot of people simply don't differentiate between Israelis and Jews (including pro-Israel lobbies who are only to happy to brand any criticism of Israel an act of anti-semitism).

Not only that, but by over-using the anti-semitism accusation, those pro-Israeli lobby group actually destigmatize it: if you can be branded antisemitic for holding perfectly valid political view, the antisemitic label loses some of its potency.

[XXSockXX]

A lot of people simply don't differentiate between Israelis and Jews

That goes both ways though, a lot of people don't understand that there is a difference between critizising the Israeli government and blaming Jews for everything. It's not like there's no left-wing anti-semitism.

[Sheb]

Yeah, I expanded on that below.

[Darvi]

Not only that, but by over-using the anti-semitism accusation, those pro-Israeli lobby group actually destigmatize it: if you can be branded antisemitic for holding perfectly valid political view, the antisemitic label loses some of its potency.

If everybody's a racist, nobody is?

_{yeah i dun think appropriating syndrome quotes works here}

[burningpet]

Beside, people state anti-semitism rise as the number one factor of considering immigration to israel in polls. you might not believe them, but those are the polls.

Considering nearly half of immigrants to Israel come from Russia (with v. tolerant USA in second), that would seem to say a lot about Russia.

Not from russia, from ex-soviet union countries, taking into account a single country, Russia is still probably the largest but the numbers are declining, also, its not a whole lot bigger than France that seen 60%+ rise. USA is a big source, but, about only 500 people more than from Ukraine.

Some numbers playing not to be taken seriously! (there are other factors in those equation)
If Ukraine jewish immigration will rise to match france's due to the recent events, taking into account what the average french immigrants pay on houses alone (~3k bought houses * 500k usd in the last year alone), this immigration will cost Ukraine more lost money than their annual export volume to the U.S and about the same amount the EU were willing to give Ukraine in financial aid. not even taking into account taxes, consumption spending, rent etc. This is money that leaves a country and doesn't come back. (obviously the country itself only sees part of that spent money, so its not a full direct loss, but its money that is going out of a domestic market circulation).

How many financially secured ukranians/russians will immigrate to russia?

Now that i think of it, a proper conspiracy theory would be that israel stirred those violent protests through the US (well, officially embraced them) so immigration to israel will rise.

Sheb, I can accept that view and its probably correct in many cases, but i also think it downplays real fascism which IS on a rise. its not only jews that warn about it, its also arabs, turks, pakistanians etc etc. just looking at the trend in voting almost all throughout europe there's a strong rise for those parties.