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[makeinu]

It's not WIFOM at all. I know what I know, and I believe the info I have. It's not my place to role-claim for someone else. That is a trust issue, and if you don't see it that way, then that's your problem. Not mine.

This, and only this, is what it comes down to TODAY!!

No night kill. Two players role-blocked. One, abducted, unable to speak. The other, out and requesting replacement, and silent.

One of them was scum. Of that there's no doubt.

Caz or Imp. Choose.

I believe Caz is Town. Ergo, I believe Imp is scum.

Which do you believe? Caz or Imp? Or some improbable sequence of events that goes like this:

Caz is Abducted.
Imp is Guarded.
Imp is role-blocked by a Psychic Warden.
Caz is also targeted for night kill.

Imp can't have been targeted for night kill if Tiruin is telling the truth, because Tiruin would be dead otherwise. And nothing Imp said yesterday gives me reason to believe the dopps would have viewed her as a threat. Neither did Caz, but at least if he (she? I can't remember, I'm sorry) had been the target, I assume the Abduction would stop that from happening.

That's waaaaaaaay too much coincidence in my tea.

[makeinu]

Actually, I want to emphasize this point:

Imp can't have been targeted for night kill if Tiruin is telling the truth, because Tiruin would be dead otherwise.

Tiruin: why would you even role-claim this at this point, given ToonyMan's role-claim and Imp's confirmation she was blocked last night?

Superblackcat, there's your WIFOM.

[Tiruin]

PMs aren't bloody allowe-
*checks*
Well I'll be damned.

Yeah, I checked that first. I'm bloody used to using PMs. People will say things in private they won't in the open if they believe those things will stay private.

Alright wise guy. What's the scoop. You say there were "other" claims yet lookie there, IT'S IN A BLOODY PM. You think I would get that info?

No, I don't. Thing is, I can't directly counter your public role claim, nor am I really doing so. I'm just noting that I've got other role claims that counter yours. Those players choose not to public role claim after you did, that's their business, but I gave my word that I wouldn't out those claims, and I simply won't do it, past this.

But it means that a decision has to be made. Specifically, is your claim to be believed or not?

Because that comes down, to me, to the final answer as to who's scum or not. If your claim is accurate, then one or both of the others is likely inaccurate. Which means I've laid my trust on scum.

Thing is, I believe those other claims. Which means that I have to suspect yours, wherein you claim to have protected Imp, who, as it just so happens, did nothing last night because she was role-blocked. Imp, who you are publicly defending as not scummy today.

No night kill. Two players role-blocked. One, abducted, unable to speak. The other, out and requesting replacement, and silent.

One of them was scum. Of that there's no doubt.

Caz or Imp. Choose.


PPE: Superblackcat, it comes down to trust and whether I'll betray it. I won't, barring compelling reason to do so. Said reason being that one that I've trusted suddenly turns very scummy.

Oho! Intersesting now, more than ever, that you start drawing lines about how my claim 'contradicts', or in the lesser sense, 'counters' others.
You then pull a line which I can't defend myself on, instead saying that it's a personal PM--while I do understand the importance of confidentiality and subterfuge, both on town and scum sides, what presses me on here is that you only state; you issue vagueness and the pull of knowledge there. I don't care (ooo first time I used that statement) about how trust goes behind the lines--I care on what context or content you're presenting and so far it delves down to 'Oh I have x and y that may say otherwise'.

It's like talking to one of the Italian Mafia about what I'll get for my birthday. Either a bullet in the head or a cake. And I'm curious on both due to their tone.

But it means that a decision has to be made. Specifically, is your claim to be believed or not?

Specifically, to counter: Does it matter? I would be honest in saying that I guarded Imp and saw nothing done to her, aye? Would that note pursue my notion of being a heroic guard?
More specifically: Does it matter along that point given how my claim is positioned?

I like you makeinu. I sense that deep-thinking mind there.

Though I've to inquire on those other claims. Are they contradictory to mine, or do they give you a wider 'view' of what's going on around you to issue doubt on me--if I was one of the sole reasons you stated all that?

No night kill. Two players role-blocked. One, abducted, unable to speak. The other, out and requesting replacement, and silent.

Woah, woah, woah.
Two players role blocked? Holy-

Mind Control
    Pure Role-blockers
    Abductors
    Protectors
    Investigators
    Night Kills/Conversions (The War Vet (or equivalent) is sort of an exception, in that he'll kill anyone who targets them on THEIR turn, rather than his)

...Your terminology. Fix it. >_>
Imp just said what she needed be said, really. She was role-blocked, and that is all that is possible to gain, as far as I can read her post. Confirms Toony's word.
Now the problem is: Discernment. On Toony/Imp's side.
However I would LOVE to point that Toony is Sinless' replacement--the crux of today's votes tumbled on Sinless because...he was lurking. That is all.

One of them was scum. Of that there's no doubt.

Caz or Imp. Choose.

No doubt?
How's about doubt that they didn't choose to kill to check on whether there would be other killers? That's a possibility--you seem to discard that, or they hit someone protected. Or they've something that sacrifices the kill for something else...

Meph: Are all roles in the OP as they are? No new roles in-game? No roles which are previously thought to be in-game but aren't in the OP, are not in game, right?

SBC

Tiruin:
Sorry about lack of quotes:

Finally, you've seen me as scum since you watched the BM Sprint game. Did you think I was scum, and did I ever bandwagon someone?

So what happened to your case on RangerCado anyway? You said you were leaning scum on him and then stopped talking about him. Was it because no one else voted him?

As for your vote on me, I find it ironic that you've accused me of bandwagoning given that is what you are doing. I'm being voted by two other people (Tiruin and Toaster). Until Toaster voted me you gave no indications that you found me scummy, and now you're voting me for bandwagoning. I've given clear indications of whom I have thought scummy, and I fail to see how voting someone who I have cited as scummy to me before on multiple occasions is "bandwagoning".

Also, his reason towards Jim is... That Jim is voting Persus himself. And then... He goes back and takes some Jim posts, that he doesn't like I guess? He asks questions, argues against those posts... and votes Jim himself. Not a very convincing reasoning at all.

His reason towards Sin was complete bullshit and bandwagon, I will not bother to summarize it.

Ok. I'll cut it off there because the tone is...very suspicious.
First: A helpful note.

Code: [Select]

[url=PUT THE LINK HERE]Any word to describe the linked post[/url]This helps issue the link to another's post.
Second: The place where I cut it--all Jim's posts referred to how he speculated the difference between lurker, and actor. One who would act in the night, when saying he wouldn't need to be replaced, and then getting awaaaaaaaaay for a whole new day was the convincing line--I was unconvinced at first until he expounded on it.

You don't seem to be convinced, and instead discard it wholly. Oh, wait, that's Toaster you're talking about, isn't it. This is what I get for seeing the lack of posts and rushing >_>

If you won't bother to summarize it, then you're failing both your own case and that presented against you given how..well, how you voted Toaster just a few posts ago. Because that seriously is a killer to your credibility. As if you're just hopping votes. Jumpy. Like a cat, afraid, unsure, yet one who must present.

His reason towards Imp: Psychic Warden claim. Uhhh... I'd call it bandwagoning. It hard to attack the Persus + Persus has no reason other than the Toony's reason. If this isn't bandwagoning... what is?

Expound or reword. I can't get this straight. Your thought process is intangental to mine. What're you thinking about here.

I switched my vote from Persus to Toaster because I don't like Toaster,

If I'd cut it off at this part, all my reaction would be is 'wat. ._.' But let's continue.

He's done what the scum has done in my other two games have done. Appear unnoticed. Squill, and Persus. Both of them I, and others, Town telled purely because nothing could be used against them... They were too much the righteous people.

METAKNOWLEDGE.
Why is metaknowledge so presentful here?! Why do you keep on using it as a defining aspect to get a surefire way on who is scum and who isn't? You're also advancing the notion that he's 'appearing too Towny'. Define and deconstruct that label for us to understand!

Where is your list on suspects?

What do you think about me?

Tiruin: why would you even role-claim this at this point, given ToonyMan's role-claim and Imp's confirmation she was blocked last night?

That's my WIFOM for scum. While it would give me joy to see others thinking deeply on it, I just claimed because of the essence of the claim--Imp is innocent in my eyes from what I've got.

All those two other claims state are these:
> I blocked someone.
> Yes I was blocked.
Confirmation.

Now this mostly works when the target was the one who performed the NK--and in that sense, is the one who would die. However I'm throwing caution to the wind in looking at the coincidence of it:
> Scum may choose to non-NK or they hit a protector who is still alive.
> There is a roleblocker.
...cue results.
And that it's really quite early given the prospect of the claiming--what I can say however is that either Toony/Imp is scum (ie can't be together) or they're both town [+ incidence of third-party alien and all but that's what I see primarily] in their relations.

What are your thoughts on the matters now? The votes and who they're on, makeinu.

[Jim Groovester]

I'm a heroic guard and I saw nothin' or nobody targetin' Imp. I'm "claiming" because I believe nobody would believe me [well, ok, some would, but given the notion of a roving protector, I'd just like to relish this one note of WIFOM'ing scum] and yet I'd assuredly want to plop in the tiniest piece of information relevant to my role.

Yes this is in tiny text and in paragraph form. You're free to believe me or not.

This does not prove anything nor mean anything since Heroic Guards are not aware of anybody who targets their target nor where their target goes.

On that note, the post where I did vote was with a note to you..I believe you forgot and are acting on Meph's posts to check if I voted or not, right?

Yes, that is correct. I skimmed Day 2 to see if you had voted and unvoted at any point and still didn't catch the vote you cast.

I'd like to throw something out ot everyone.

Yeah, just throw it out there like I didn't already.

Okay, thanks, I'll keep that in mind for when I'm scum.

I like your subtle town claim.

Hey Jim, since I've decided against Imp for the present, and Caz isn't here, it's your turn to be questioned.

Oh, nice. I'm sure this has nothing to do with my recent vote on you.

So what is the proper response? Does this instantly mean that someone is scum if they refuse to be rattled?

The proper town response is to be unfazed. Panicky people are scummy, and panicky people because of dumb insinuation are also scummy.

What's your point with bringing this up?

If you had said that you weren't a dopp to begin with without trying to explain it too much I probably would've looked elsewhere.

Isn't claiming that your town supposed to be a bad thing?

It's more about denying being a dopp than claiming town when challenged with dumb insinuation.

I'm sure you were perfectly fine with doing this when you were similarly challenged:

So tell me, dopp, what did happen with your kill last night?

Considering the fact that I'm not a dopp, I don't really know.

Unless you're willing to admit that this implicit town claim is bad somehow.

What's your problem with people not voting at the beginning of days?

My problem is with people not voting suspects.

I believe Imp was referring to this:

You're probably right.

Why are you bringing it up, though?

Your summary isn't working. I don't understand it.

Okay.

Is there a point here?

If I perfectly understood what RangerCado was getting at I wouldn't bother with a summary.

How is this the correct response? I would fail to see how this helps you discover scum.

It only helps if they give the incorrect response, which happens occasionally.

This makes it worthwhile to try.

Finally, you've seen me as scum since you watched the BM Sprint game. Did you think I was scum, and did I ever bandwagon someone?

Ehhhh, not really. I didn't pay much attention, or any, to the game and I didn't go back once the game was over and take down notes on people's meta.

So what happened to your case on RangerCado anyway? You said you were leaning scum on him and then stopped talking about him. Was it because no one else voted him?

I ran out of things to press him over. He's been doing a not terrible job of being active and questioning people since then.

As for your vote on me, I find it ironic that you've accused me of bandwagoning given that is what you are doing. I'm being voted by two other people (Tiruin and Toaster). Until Toaster voted me you gave no indications that you found me scummy, and now you're voting me for bandwagoning. I've given clear indications of whom I have thought scummy, and I fail to see how voting someone who I have cited as scummy to me before on multiple occasions is "bandwagoning".

You can call it what you like and I will do the same, and we'll see whose argument sticks.

You were voting Imp, sure, but then you jumped to Sinlessmoon for weak reasons, and then you jumped back to Imp when ToonyMan claimed, and then you had a reversal of your opinion as soon as there were people willing to argue against the idea of Imp being scum. You are jumping on votes of most convenience, and if that isn't bandwagoning then I don't know what is.

State your case on me. I have no idea what you're voting me for and I have no idea what feasible purpose you have for all those posts you brought up.

Ok, Jim

Quick Clarification.

You voted Sinless because he asked to stay in during the night. Continued once replaced because of the uncertainty of the claim?
Now that the claim has been confirmed, how does your voting/suspect list change?

Yes. It wasn't the uncertainty of the claim; I didn't really doubt that Sinlessmoon/ToonyMan blocked Imp or that Imp would have confirmed it. I was more worried about Sinlessmoon's choice of target.

It doesn't really change my suspect list very much. ToonyMan replacing in and not being ridiculously scummy from the get go had more effect on my list of suspicions than his claim or it being confirmed.

It's that this is the second claim to Heroic Guard I've heard so far today, and the other claim, unlike Tiruin's, specifically was Town Heroic Guard (they can be dopp, if I'm reading correctly). And, also, the third Guard claim I've heard today.

I'll let that sink in for a bit.

Roles are not exclusive in this game, and the existence of two Heroic Guards does not imply that they are of opposite alignment.

Yeah, I checked that first. I'm bloody used to using PMs. People will say things in private they won't in the open if they believe those things will stay private.

Don't expect people to fall in line with what you're arguing because of unknown claims exchanged in private.

Caz or Imp. Choose.

Caz could've been the target of the night kill, which means that the list of people who could have feasibly performed the kill but were blocked widens to everybody. Trying to narrow down the choices to just those two, only one of whom is actually able to voted right now, is shortsighted and faulty.

Actually, I want to emphasize this point:

Imp can't have been targeted for night kill if Tiruin is telling the truth, because Tiruin would be dead otherwise.

Lots of people don't get targeted by the nightkill.

I fail to see the point of your emphasis.

[Superblackcat]

I'm seriously not going to bother with links, please Tiruin, don't force it on me.

Tiruin:
SBC
Quote from: Superblackcat on Today at 01:00:06 am
Tiruin:
Sorry about lack of quotes:
Quote
Finally, you've seen me as scum since you watched the BM Sprint game. Did you think I was scum, and did I ever bandwagon someone?

So what happened to your case on RangerCado anyway? You said you were leaning scum on him and then stopped talking about him. Was it because no one else voted him?

As for your vote on me, I find it ironic that you've accused me of bandwagoning given that is what you are doing. I'm being voted by two other people (Tiruin and Toaster). Until Toaster voted me you gave no indications that you found me scummy, and now you're voting me for bandwagoning. I've given clear indications of whom I have thought scummy, and I fail to see how voting someone who I have cited as scummy to me before on multiple occasions is "bandwagoning".

Also, his reason towards Jim is... That Jim is voting Persus himself. And then... He goes back and takes some Jim posts, that he doesn't like I guess? He asks questions, argues against those posts... and votes Jim himself. Not a very convincing reasoning at all.

His reason towards Sin was complete bullshit and bandwagon, I will not bother to summarize it.
Ok. I'll cut it off there because the tone is...very suspicious.
First: A helpful note.
Code: [Select]
Any word to describe the linked post
This helps issue the link to another's post.
Second: The place where I cut it--all Jim's posts referred to how he speculated the difference between lurker, and actor. One who would act in the night, when saying he wouldn't need to be replaced, and then getting awaaaaaaaaay for a whole new day was the convincing line--I was unconvinced at first until he expounded on it.

You don't seem to be convinced, and instead discard it wholly. Oh, wait, that's Toaster you're talking about, isn't it. This is what I get for seeing the lack of posts and rushing >_>

If you won't bother to summarize it, then you're failing both your own case and that presented against you given how..well, how you voted Toaster just a few posts ago. Because that seriously is a killer to your credibility. As if you're just hopping votes. Jumpy. Like a cat, afraid, unsure, yet one who must present.
[/quote]

Alright, I won't summarize it, because it's generic, been discussed about 10x and I'm sure every side of the story has been represented... Some way shape or form. If you can't figure it out... Well, go reread, because this has been 70% of d2.

'Oh that's Toaster you are talking about'

What are you talking about?... Everything there is about Persus. Only after my bold of Toaster do I start talking about Toaster.

Persus' reason against Sin was... He is lurking=deadweight... Now, if you will look back to Jim's response to that. "If you vote someone for lurking, but not actually for them being scummy, you are not scum hunting" or something along those lines.

Persus basically copied the reason for Sin... If this isn't bandwagon...

Alright, I'll define jumping onto a bandwagon: Voting someone with reasons of the people who voted him previously. Or something along those lines...

Now lets move on:

Quote

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[spoiler]His reason towards Imp: Psychic Warden claim. Uhhh... I'd call it bandwagoning. It hard to attack the Persus + Persus has no reason other than the Toony's reason. If this isn't bandwagoning... what is?
Expound or reword. I can't get this straight. Your thought process is intangental to mine. What're you thinking about here.

[/spoiler]

Uh, look at my definition at bandwagon... Persus jumps onto Imp with Toony's reason after Toony votes Imp... (I'd say perfect fit!)

Quote
He's done what the scum has done in my other two games have done. Appear unnoticed. Squill, and Persus. Both of them I, and others, Town telled purely because nothing could be used against them... They were too much the righteous people.
METAKNOWLEDGE.
Why is metaknowledge so presentful here?! Why do you keep on using it as a defining aspect to get a surefire way on who is scum and who isn't? You're also advancing the notion that he's 'appearing too Towny'. Define and deconstruct that label for us to understand!

Where is your list on suspects?

What do you think about me?

Tiruin: Metaknowledge is how you play the game, if what this is is meta knowledge. I'm basically listing out scumtells for me, where I get them, and then how it applies. Scumtells on this forum comes from previous games. Meta? I think not.

Appearing too towny, (Scumtell): This is where a player can be read right over. They have nothing. They appear incredibly towny because they don't do anything, they don't take any risks. I regular town would take risks of appearing scummy to attack others. Someone 'Appearing too towny' doesn't take those risks, and instead, just kind of go with the flow, and doesn't anger anyone. They point or more or less useless scumtells, either pointed out before, or reworded.

List of Suspects:
Most:
Persus, Toaster, Imp
Jim, Ranger, Makeinu
Tiruin
Least

[makeinu]

But it means that a decision has to be made. Specifically, is your claim to be believed or not?

Specifically, to counter: Does it matter? I would be honest in saying that I guarded Imp and saw nothing done to her, aye? Would that note pursue my notion of being a heroic guard?
More specifically: Does it matter along that point given how my claim is positioned?

Yet you're positing your role claim as relevant to Imp's innocence. It's circular reasoning, except that it's not even circular.

"I believe Imp is Town, so I Guard her, and I see her do nothing, but she was role-blocked so she couldn't have done anything and my role won't tell me anyway whether she did anything, and she wasn't targeted last night by the scum, therefore my view that she's Town is correct."

Am I missing something there? Because that's what you seem to be saying, and it confuses me even more! Doubly so when I wonder why you'd role-claim now?

I like you makeinu. I sense that deep-thinking mind there.

Though I've to inquire on those other claims. Are they contradictory to mine, or do they give you a wider 'view' of what's going on around you to issue doubt on me--if I was one of the sole reasons you stated all that?

Not necessarily contradictory per se, and yes, it gives me a "wider view", but that's not where my doubt on you arises from.

No night kill. Two players role-blocked. One, abducted, unable to speak. The other, out and requesting replacement, and silent.

Woah, woah, woah.
Two players role blocked? Holy-

Mind Control
    Pure Role-blockers
    Abductors
    Protectors
    Investigators
    Night Kills/Conversions (The War Vet (or equivalent) is sort of an exception, in that he'll kill anyone who targets them on THEIR turn, rather than his)

...Your terminology. Fix it. >_>

Abduction: When a player abducts another player, two things happen. First, the abducted player is role-blocked for the night.

No need to, it's perfectly accurate the way it is. The Abductor is a role-blocker, just not a pure one.

Now the problem is: Discernment. On Toony/Imp's side.
However I would LOVE to point that Toony is Sinless' replacement--the crux of today's votes tumbled on Sinless because...he was lurking. That is all.

Seems to me the problem is more: Deflection.

One of them was scum. Of that there's no doubt.

Caz or Imp. Choose.

No doubt?

To me, right now, no. I am firmly of the mind that one of them is scum. That doesn't mean I don't have other suspects, Jim, to reply to this:

Trying to narrow down the choices to just those two, only one of whom is actually able to voted right now, is shortsighted and faulty.

How's about doubt that they didn't choose to kill to check on whether there would be other killers? That's a possibility--you seem to discard that,

Give me that and a dollar and I might be able to buy a cup of coffee. I'll admit, as scum, I've skipped a night kill to confuse, but never on night one, and never at these odds.

or they hit someone protected.

So, they targeted Caz, since that's the only possibility that doesn't end with a dead scum or a dead guard. Which means Caz is Town, if your logic here is correct.

What are your thoughts on the matters now? The votes and who they're on, makeinu.

Persus: can't seem to make up his mind, on that, I agree with Jim. I just don't agree that makes him scum. Scummy, sure, maybe, but scum? Not feeling it.

Jim: also not feeling it. Single-minded in his hounding, but that's good scum-hunting. Chase someone until they break, then read the entrails for signs.

Imp: made my case for that one repeatedly.

Actually, I want to emphasize this point:

Imp can't have been targeted for night kill if Tiruin is telling the truth, because Tiruin would be dead otherwise.

Lots of people don't get targeted by the nightkill.

I fail to see the point of your emphasis.

Tiruin claimed to have guarded Imp last night. If Imp was the night kill target, one of two things is true:

1) Tiruin did guard, and would be dead.
2) Tiruin did not guard, and Imp would be dead.

That neither is dead tells us that Imp was not the target of the night kill. Only two possibilities remaining:

1) The dopps forewent a night kill after losing one to lynch. Highly unlikely does not begin to describe how I feel that possibility is.
2) Caz was the target of the night kill.

Still too much coincidence in my tea, but when you have eliminated the impossible, what remains, however improbable, must be the truth.


Superblackcat:

Your posts are nigh impenetrable. I can hardly tell if you're making a statement, much less a point.

Tiruin: Metaknowledge is how you play the game, if what this is is meta knowledge. I'm basically listing out scumtells for me, where I get them, and then how it applies. Scumtells on this forum comes from previous games. Meta? I think not.

Vicky: Yeah but no but yeah but no but yeah but no because I've never had sex apart from that one time eight months ago but apart from that I'm a complete virgin.

Is it meta, or is it Memorex? Seriously, dude, can I at least have some syrup with the waffles?

Appearing too towny, (Scumtell): This is where a player can be read right over. They have nothing. They appear incredibly towny because they don't do anything, they don't take any risks. I regular town would take risks of appearing scummy to attack others. Someone 'Appearing too towny' doesn't take those risks, and instead, just kind of go with the flow, and doesn't anger anyone. They point or more or less useless scumtells, either pointed out before, or reworded.

Which, oddly enough, Imp was doing all day D1. Come to think, it's what Toaster is doing as well, still...

Toaster? Oh, Toaster!? Care to comment?

[Superblackcat]

I'd like to know how the hell 'memorosex' is connected... in any way shape or form. please.

[makeinu]

Because when I read that bit about metaknowledge, all I could think of was Vicky from 'Little Britain'.

"Yeah, but no, but yeah, but no, but... something unrelated!"

Make up your mind already! Is it meta (yes) or isn't it meta (it is)?

And then you turn around and explain that what you're using is metaknowledge, pulling tells from player performance in other games, but insist at the end it's not, and that had my mind riff on the old '80's Memorex commercials. I... can't even say why. I'm tired, my mind is making weird connections, it's past midnight...

And why am I even explaining this? *goes to bed*

Wake me when you make your point cogent, because I can't sort your words from anyone else's...

[Imp]

I should be asleep, I'm dead tired.

I believe I have a chance to check in tomorrow about 6 hours before end of Day, then again about 2 hours before end of Day.

I'd like to see a few questions answered if possible before I vote.  If they don't get answered I'll vote without those answers.

I confirm I was blocked last night and put to sleep.  I think that means a psychic warden did it.

Did you or did you not feel the overwhelming presence of an elder god?
Meaning: Chains. Locks. Keys. Metal bars.
Any of them, did you feel?

Great question.  Goes with this one:

Hello Toony! So Imp got blocked last night. Any other details you can add (ex. flavor)?

Toonyman has not answered this question, which I also want to know.

@Makeinu:

That's a nice list, ToonyMan, but I still want an answer to this question:

I'm still curious what your defense would have been without laying a role claim, especially one of such magnitude.

Oh yeah, uh, If I didn't have this nice nugget of information (like if I was a cop who inspected a dead guy) then I would probably be screwed.  Genuine scum-hunting is fine and all, but with such a short time and a lot of suspicion on Sinlessmoon I don't think I would be able to take the heat off without some hard proof.  That's why I'm sort of surprised Sinless would lurk through the day.  In the end, you would probably see me desperately struggling to pull something out of my ass.

I admit I would probably end up role-claiming regardless.  But it would have probably been a non-verifiable one.  If Imp says she wasn't blocked then she is lying.

Toonyman says his/Sinlessmoon having blocked me is "hard proof".  I do not understand what this hard proof is.

One thing it appears to prove is that Toonyman is a Psychic Warden.  But why would Toonyman want that proven?  Psychic Wardens are either Town or Dopplegangers, but never aliens if I understand the roles right.

Spoiler: Considering why Toonyman might want to claim Psychic Warden (click to show/hide)

We know we have an abductor role.  All abductors are aliens.  Could Caz have been the Psychic Warden who targeted me?  Psychic Wardens are 'Pure Role-blockers', the action comes before abduction, so this is possible.

I wonder if Sinlessmoon was a Xenozoologist who targeted Caz, and Caz might have been the Warden who targeted me.  Sinlessmoon was doing something.  We know he PMed Meph that he wanted to keep playing, but he apparently didn't want to talk to us in the thread.  Xenozoologists and their abductions can PM each other freely.  Could Caz have told Sinlessmoon what he did night 1?  Would Caz have told him?  If so, Caz I sure hope you didn't tell him anything about the action's flavor.

Then Toonyman inherited the role and related information, and the pressure of several votes when he entered play.  Toony gave no flavor information in his role claim, though he was correct about my having been targeted by a Psychic Warden N1.  And he saw, or claimed to see this as 'hard proof' that I was Scum.

Toonyman, why didn't you answer the question about the flavor of your action?  For that matter, why did you state your role claim and action result without discussing flavor?  And of course, what was the flavor of your night action?  Caz, in case this applies and you're still reading the thread, remember you don't have to tell him if you haven't yet.  Giving your abductor more information doesn't appear likely to get you freed, but if you offered this as a clue and hoped your abductor might use it and someone would catch it, I hope it is caught too.

As to the flavor of my N1 PM, I'll answer after Toonyman does.  I should have those two chances to get online tomorrow before day end.

Words expressing certainty that either Imp or Caz is Scum

I'd like to get out of the way that Imp should be lynched today.

Why?  I'm a Psychic Warden and blocked him Night 1.  There was no dopp kill Night 1.  I wasn't initially going to role-claim, but with some pretty incriminating evidence in front of me I see no reason not to.

makeinu and Toonyman:  Have you read the possible roles completely?  Including the Tech picks?

Could this explain what happened to the night kill, and why no one admitted to having survived a night kill?

•Small Tech
◦Personal Shield: Works once as though guarded by the Guardian. Will also protect against Morningkills.

I haven't had time to read any previous Paranormals.  I don't know what kind of information the target gets if a night or morning kill is eaten by a personal shield.

If there's no information about use of a personal shield, the target couldn't speak about it because of ignorance.

If there is information about using a personal shield, the target might not choose to speak about it because only aliens have access to tech.

Any type of alien with access to small tech could have it, and because of the large tech 'replicator' object, any alien with access to large tech could have it too.  That makes a huge mess of roles and Wincons who could possibly have eaten a Nightkill without dying - but admitting to surviving a nightkill is tantamount to admitting being a guardian, a tough doppelganger, or having had a personal shield (and thus being alien).

makeinu:  Do you disagree with this information?  I assume you 'missed' it when you were reading the OP, but if you want to explain why you disregarded this info I'm eager to hear it.  Given this information, please explain why you say it is absolutely true that one of either Caz or I must be Scum.
Toonyman:  You have proven that you know I was targeted by a psychic warden last night, but if you knew about personal shields or if you were aware that Caz was abducted, you know your "hard proof" isn't quite that.

Oh yeah, uh, If I didn't have this nice nugget of information (like if I was a cop who inspected a dead guy) then I would probably be screwed.  Genuine scum-hunting is fine and all, but with such a short time and a lot of suspicion on Sinlessmoon I don't think I would be able to take the heat off without some hard proof.

It's certainly possible Imp is town, but I find it more possible she's a dopp.  They seem to be replacing out though...

So you say it's "certainly possible Imp is town".  And you also say lynch me, because you know I was targeted by a warden last night.

Even if you are telling the truth about being the Warden that targetted me, I think that's a pretty garbage case made for pretty selfish motives.  I'm really interested in seeing if the flavor you claim from the PM you claim you have about binding me (Oh yeah, you didn't claim to have that PM - but if I was Sinlessmoon's target like you claim, you have it), if your flavor matches the flavor in my PM or not.

Imp - Day 1 attacks were odd

Toonyman:  Can you explain what you mean by odd?  I've been accused of being humorless and being too quiet (recently that one became horribly true) this game, but no one else has called my 'attacks' or posts odd for any other reasons.  I think you want me lynched, and I'd like some proof that it's because you're so sure I'm a Dopp, especially given that you say things like this too:

It's certainly possible Imp is town

Also:

Imp ...currently think they're a dopp because of lack of kill

You keep repeating that, even though it's not the "hard proof" that you claim you think it is.  That's the reason you give for me being your top Scum pick.

Your second Scum pick is because you think that person (Tiruin) is Caz's kidnapper, as a wild guess.  Gosh, wild guess could pick any player.  I call garbage logic.

Third Scum pick (RangerCado) is because of 'defense of Imp', because RangerCado questioned others about why they were suspicious of me.

Ignoring that RangerCado's style appears to be questioning others about others in general:

And makeinu, you dodged the question by Max there. Even though you corrected this, why do it in the first place?

And what is the point of your question less vote on Sin?!

[b[Persus13:[/b] Is there a reason you would want Tiruin as a player? All you've said is because of the way I worded the question, you wouldn't need to worry about alignment. Why would you want her as someone you could trust through the game?

Max: Take this as defending if you wish, but Tiruin does things like that all the time. I've done it myself once or twice and it can work out to get a reaction. I'm going to meta here, but do you think that doing what she did has no merit for her scum hunting, and if so why? If its just because it could seem like defending, then thats fine, but often people have more than one reason with these things.

There's plenty more quotes of RangerCado asking one player questions about what they've said about another player.  I say Toonyman cherrypicked so he could have something to accuse about that Toonyman felt comfortable with, so Toonyman could have something that looked like a list of Scum-to-Town picks, and that most of this list was thrown together and isn't true.

The rest of his list delves into can't read and non-Scummy, though he lists Caz as third Towniest and a possible Dopp but can't be voted.  Weird reason to list as probable Town.
I'm too tired to finish this.  Everything else must be very incomplete or skipped entire.

Tiruin, are you actually claiming to be a "heroic guard"?  Are you actually claiming to have guarded me N1?  Are you willing to discuss why you picked me to die for on N1 if it came to that - if you actually are making this paired claim?

Imp has answered one of my questions

Persus13, am I missing other questions still?

makinu:

Here's my problem, and it's not that the Heroic Guard doesn't see if the person was targeted.

It's that this is the second claim to Heroic Guard I've heard so far today, and the other claim, unlike Tiruin's, specifically was Town Heroic Guard (they can be dopp, if I'm reading correctly). And, also, the third Guard claim I've heard today.

I'll let that sink in for a bit.

What?  I searched the topic cause I couldn't find it.  I searched for 'heroic' and I searched for 'guard'.  The only claim I see is Tiruin's.  Quote the other one(s) that you say you see.  I don't see any claim from anyone of being Town heroic guard.

MakeINU Where were the other claims to Guard?

In PMs. Those are allowed this game, remember?

Why the hell would I role-claim on someone else? That's just dumb, to take what trust has been built and toss it on a fire.

Wow.  Just... wow.  Alright.  I'll claim now that no player in this game has sent me a PM.  I'll also claim that I have not sent any player any PMs.  I see in the rules:

Rule on PMs: Private Messages are allowed. However, I must be copied on all PMs. Failure to do so will result in very bad things happening to you.

And I see:

Rules: The medium can freely communicate with Dead characters via PM/Ghost Chat.

Xenozoologist ... The Scientist and all of his captives may freely PM one another

Alien Tech can be passed between players as long as both players agree to the trade. This must be done via PM.

I gather that you have been properly copying to Meph every PM between yourself and another player.

I'm not going to ask you to expose anyone's roles or any other secrets others told you.

But I am going to ask you - makeinu, how many different players have you spoken in PMs with this game?  Did you start any of these conversation(s)?  For the conversations you started, why did you pick the person/people you spoke to and not pick the others?  For the conversations others started with you - what was your reaction upon recieving the first PM from that player/those players?


Also - tell me, you have PMed Caz then, right?  I had not because I had not understood that -every- player could PM -any other player-, except for the specific types of roles and targets specified in the role list.  But you have, correct?  What has Caz said about his abductor?

Superblackcat:

Imp, Sorry about making you be here, or something. But do you have an argument against you being scum?

No argument.  The claim 'You are Scum' by itself is worthless, no matter who says it about whom.  Without reasons to support it, such is an RVS or pressure type of challenge and utterly meaningless except for the reactions it creates in the target and what its use shows about the motives of its user.

Meph:  Please verify that all players may freely PM all other living players?  Once you do so I'm PMing Caz as soon as I see you confirm this is legal.  Caz may be alive or dead, but if he can be PMed I have questions for him.

[Toaster]

Superblackcat:

Hey Toaster, Might you step it up this game? I'm pretty sure I heard somewhere that you and Jim are the masters of Mafia here... I'm quite sad to see what a master of mafia here is.

What posts thus far do you think has had the most impact towards scum hunting?

I've never claimed to be a master; especially lately.  I will say I'm rarely lynched, but that's not the same as "good as finding scum," which I've never claimed to be.

Are you asking which posts have the most relevant tells or those which are the best hunting?  If the former, look at my posts and if I quote it, it's relevant.  The latter... uhhh... tough call, really.  Jim is pretty good at hunting scum, so his tend to be insightful (though I think he's off the mark over Ranger.)  DarkStar's posts got him lynched- that was pretty impactful.

Toaster... What the hell are you doing?

Playing this game called Mafia.  What the hell are you doing?

I'm seriously not going to bother with links, please Tiruin, don't force it on me.

It makes your posts harder to read, which makes it harder to get your point across, which makes it harder to convince people of your case.  I certainly can't force you to do it, but do know that the extra effort pays off.

For example, the post I'm quoting is unreadable because it has long tracts of plaintext quotes in it.  I can't figure out what is yours and what isn't.


Makeinu:

No, I don't. Thing is, I can't directly counter your public role claim, nor am I really doing so. I'm just noting that I've got other role claims that counter yours.

No you don't.

Two town Heroic Guards and a third town other guard is a possible- even plausible- role setup.  There is no true counterclaim going on here.

No night kill. Two players role-blocked. One, abducted, unable to speak. The other, out and requesting replacement, and silent.

One of them was scum. Of that there's no doubt.

Caz or Imp. Choose.

I don't see how one HAS to be scum, since there are other possibilities out there, not the least of which is that Caz was the NK target.

And Jim beats me to both those points.

So, they targeted Caz, since that's the only possibility that doesn't end with a dead scum or a dead guard. Which means Caz is Town, if your logic here is correct.

Non-dopp, more accurately.  If there's a Xenozoologist, then there has to be at least one other alien.

Appearing too towny, (Scumtell): This is where a player can be read right over. They have nothing. They appear incredibly towny because they don't do anything, they don't take any risks. I regular town would take risks of appearing scummy to attack others. Someone 'Appearing too towny' doesn't take those risks, and instead, just kind of go with the flow, and doesn't anger anyone. They point or more or less useless scumtells, either pointed out before, or reworded.

Which, oddly enough, Imp was doing all day D1. Come to think, it's what Toaster is doing as well, still...

Toaster? Oh, Toaster!? Care to comment?

"Too Townie" is a terrible, terrible scumtell.  Among other reasons, what if the person appears very townie because they are actually town?

Actually, the scumtell name and scumtell description you have quoted there don't even match.  "Too Townie" is more like "This person is hunting loud and aggressively, and now it's endgame and they haven't been nightkilled yet.  They must be SCUM!"  The description you have there is more minimum effort, which isn't townie at all.


Tiruin:

One of them was scum. Of that there's no doubt.

Caz or Imp. Choose.

No doubt?
How's about doubt that they didn't choose to kill to check on whether there would be other killers?

Okay, Tiruin.  I'd forgive a new player this one, but you're experienced enough to know better.  One, that'd be idiotic of the scum team.  Two, you know full well that Paranormal kill flavor is based on the race of the killer, so other killers would stand out.  Three, they'd also stand out by additional corpses.

Why did you claim, anyway?  Was it just a mistaken understanding* of the rule of your role or did you have some other purpose?


*If so, maybe I'm overestimating your Paranormal knowledge.  Is this your first one?


Imp:

•Small Tech
◦Personal Shield: Works once as though guarded by the Guardian. Will also protect against Morningkills.

I haven't had time to read any previous Paranormals.  I don't know what kind of information the target gets if a night or morning kill is eaten by a personal shield.

It's obvious to the killer.  Basically, you attack the target and they don't die.  Flavorwise, there's usually some reason the attack can't continue.

[Mephansteras]

The Whiteboard
Imp: makeinu, ToonyMan
Jim Groovester: Persus13, RangerCado
Persus13: Jim Groovester, Tiruin, Toaster
ToonyMan: Imp
Toaster: Superblackcat


Day ends ~5pm Pacific Today (About 8 hours)

Meph:  Please verify that all players may freely PM all other living players?  Once you do so I'm PMing Caz as soon as I see you confirm this is legal.  Caz may be alive or dead, but if he can be PMed I have questions for him.

Any living player may be PMed freely. However, an Abducted player cannot respond except to their abductor. Nor can a dead one, of course.

[makeinu]

I should be asleep, I'm dead tired.

Thank you for taking the time to answer anything at all. Despite my assertions of certainty, I'd rather get this right than not.

I'm not going to ask you to expose anyone's roles or any other secrets others told you.

Thank you. I'm debating making my own role-claim, because it would bolster my arguments, but I can't be certain to what degree that would violate my own agreement to keep confidence. It's a very thin line I'm walking, and I'm asking a lot of trust in return.

But I am going to ask you - makeinu, how many different players have you spoken in PMs with this game?  Did you start any of these conversation(s)?  For the conversations you started, why did you pick the person/people you spoke to and not pick the others?

More than one, less than all. I started the conversations; as I've stated several times, I'm accustomed to player-to-player PMs as the norm. You guys here aren't; quite the opposite, in fact.

Spoiler: Witness (click to show/hide)

MakeINU Where were the other claims to Guard?

In PMs. Those are allowed this game, remember?

Wow.  Just... wow.  Alright.  I'll claim now that no player in this game has sent me a PM.  I'll also claim that I have not sent any player any PMs.

I confirm I was blocked last night and put to sleep.  I think that means a psychic warden did it.

Did you or did you not feel the overwhelming presence of an elder god?
Meaning: Chains. Locks. Keys. Metal bars.
Any of them, did you feel?

Great question.  Goes with this one:

Hello Toony! So Imp got blocked last night. Any other details you can add (ex. flavor)?

Toonyman has not answered this question, which I also want to know.

Ultimately tells the rest of us nothing. I presume ToonyMan was given the relevant PMs between Sinlessmoon and Meph, and then we're stuck with "he said, she said" when he answers and you counter it. It's a good question to ask, and should be answered, but it won't help in the end.

@Makeinu:

That's a nice list, ToonyMan, but I still want an answer to this question:

I'm still curious what your defense would have been without laying a role claim, especially one of such magnitude.

Oh yeah, uh, If I didn't have this nice nugget of information (like if I was a cop who inspected a dead guy) then I would probably be screwed.  Genuine scum-hunting is fine and all, but with such a short time and a lot of suspicion on Sinlessmoon I don't think I would be able to take the heat off without some hard proof.  That's why I'm sort of surprised Sinless would lurk through the day.  In the end, you would probably see me desperately struggling to pull something out of my ass.

I admit I would probably end up role-claiming regardless.  But it would have probably been a non-verifiable one.  If Imp says she wasn't blocked then she is lying.

Toonyman says his/Sinlessmoon having blocked me is "hard proof".  I do not understand what this hard proof is.

Caz was abducted last night. You were blocked. There was no night kill. That doesn't leave terribly many options. You being dopp is actually the easiest explanation to me, and Occam's Razor states that among competing hypotheses, the hypothesis with the fewest assumptions should be selected.

One thing it appears to prove is that Toonyman is a Psychic Warden.  But why would Toonyman want that proven?  Psychic Wardens are either Town or Dopplegangers, but never aliens if I understand the roles right.

As I understand them as well, that's correct.

We know we have an abductor role.  All abductors are aliens.  Could Caz have been the Psychic Warden who targeted me?  Psychic Wardens are 'Pure Role-blockers', the action comes before abduction, so this is possible.

Technically, yes, but that involves on my part the assumption that I was lied to. Not an egregious assumption, mind, but one extra thing I have to call into question. And if I'm going to call everything into question, I might just as well fold the hand, and wait out the day.

I wonder if Sinlessmoon was a Xenozoologist who targeted Caz, and Caz might have been the Warden who targeted me.  Sinlessmoon was doing something.  We know he PMed Meph that he wanted to keep playing, but he apparently didn't want to talk to us in the thread.  Xenozoologists and their abductions can PM each other freely.  Could Caz have told Sinlessmoon what he did night 1?  Would Caz have told him?  If so, Caz I sure hope you didn't tell him anything about the action's flavor.

makeinu and Toonyman:  Have you read the possible roles completely?  Including the Tech picks?

Could this explain what happened to the night kill, and why no one admitted to having survived a night kill?

Any type of alien with access to small tech could have it, and because of the large tech 'replicator' object, any alien with access to large tech could have it too.  That makes a huge mess of roles and Wincons who could possibly have eaten a Nightkill without dying - but admitting to surviving a nightkill is tantamount to admitting being a guardian, a tough doppelganger, or having had a personal shield (and thus being alien).

makeinu:  Do you disagree with this information?  I assume you 'missed' it when you were reading the OP, but if you want to explain why you disregarded this info I'm eager to hear it.  Given this information, please explain why you say it is absolutely true that one of either Caz or I must be Scum.

Yes, I read that. I disregard it because of what's been claimed to me privately.

How many aliens are you postulating here? Because the Harvester doesn't have a tech slot, it's worth noting.

Also - tell me, you have PMed Caz then, right?  I had not because I had not understood that -every- player could PM -any other player-, except for the specific types of roles and targets specified in the role list.  But you have, correct?  What has Caz said about his abductor?

No, because it's my assumption that the abduction means Caz is out of play entirely for the day. I've not seen abduction powers often, but every time I have, that's been the case, so it did not occur to me to ask. And remember, PMs are always authorized where I usually play.

Meph:  Please verify that all players may freely PM all other living players?  Once you do so I'm PMing Caz as soon as I see you confirm this is legal.  Caz may be alive or dead, but if he can be PMed I have questions for him.

If this is confirmed as allowed, then I'll PM Caz immediately.

PPE: Argle bargle. That's pretty much exactly what I'd figured. I really don't want to role-claim, it blows everything I've done in private up.

[RangerCado]

Jim:

I don't care, deal with it, world's tiniest violin, world's saddest song, etc. etc.

Have you tried sparring back? It's a lot more interesting than complaining about how I'm being a really big meanie.

So you want me to yell insults towards you about everything about you, and not about you to make things interesting? ...This is a stupid way to make someone crack and you probably know it. And whats your current suspicions on me since you’ve run out of things to throw at me it seems? Also, may I ask why you were accusing me of not answering your questions in a quite colorful manner when you had no questions for me to answer?

Makeinu: How do we know you aren’t lying through your teeth about these PMs? Do we have any reason to trust your claims more than Toony’s and Tiruin’s? Can you tell us who they guarded last night, if at all? And yes, your claiming of 2 other guards talking to you via PM has created WIFOM.


Reads List:

-Toaster: Slight scum read. He’s disappeared recently and hasn’t contributed much overall, but nothing scummy comes to mind from his posts.

-Toonyman: Neutral read. I have no idea where to go with this. Sinless didn’t give me anything to work with, and Toony is a middle ground for me right now, despite his claim.

-SuperBlackCat: Slight scum read. I haven’t seen much come from him that is constructive yet, and is now using meta to justify his bandwagoning that he is completely aware of.

-Tiruin: Heavily leaning Town read. I always get a town read from Tiruin, no matter what game I’m in with her. Shes playing the game, helping town, with the only really questionable thing done so far was claiming Heroic Guard.

-Makeinu: Slight scum read. makeinu has been a back and forth for me most of the game so far, his claim of two other guards in the game causing a lot of confusion right now.

-Jim: Scum read. Biased or not, Jim just doesn’t seem to be playing how he normally would, and is being very finnicky about his and others votes, and his scum hunting seems sub-par to me at best. Granted day 1 he had finals, but now… I’m just not getting a good vibe on him.

-Persus: Slight Town read. I may just not being seeing it, but I haven’t seen any scum tells from him, mostly just decent hunting. He is, however, voting back and forth a lot as well… And always the second vote too… hmm…

-Imp: Neutral tell. Good hunting and a player who puts a lot of work into his posts, but getting replaced and all the claims are making it hard to for me to get a definate. Maybe third party?

I’ll probably have another post before day end, and if I missed any questions from someone I would appreciate being told. ciao!

[makeinu]

Makeinu: How do we know you aren’t lying through your teeth about these PMs? Do we have any reason to trust your claims more than Toony’s and Tiruin’s? Can you tell us who they guarded last night, if at all? And yes, your claiming of 2 other guards talking to you via PM has created WIFOM.

You don't. It comes down to believability and trust.

I'm awaiting a PM response before I decide what else to do, including answering your questions.

Also, nothing on Caz at all? You've all of D1 to base a read on, so what's your take there?

[Imp]

But I am going to ask you - makeinu, how many different players have you spoken in PMs with this game?  Did you start any of these conversation(s)?  For the conversations you started, why did you pick the person/people you spoke to and not pick the others?

More than one, less than all. I started the conversations; as I've stated several times, I'm accustomed to player-to-player PMs as the norm. You guys here aren't; quite the opposite, in fact.

I note that you elected to state that you would not answer the first question.  Thank you for actually answering the second.  You did not say anything about the third, so I ask again:

Why did you pick the person/people you spoke to and not pick the others?

I confirm I was blocked last night and put to sleep.  I think that means a psychic warden did it.

Did you or did you not feel the overwhelming presence of an elder god?
Meaning: Chains. Locks. Keys. Metal bars.
Any of them, did you feel?

Great question.  Goes with this one:

Hello Toony! So Imp got blocked last night. Any other details you can add (ex. flavor)?

Toonyman has not answered this question, which I also want to know.

Ultimately tells the rest of us nothing. I presume ToonyMan was given the relevant PMs between Sinlessmoon and Meph, and then we're stuck with "he said, she said" when he answers and you counter it. It's a good question to ask, and should be answered, but it won't help in the end.

You may be mistaken about what flavor claims do and do not tell others.  Meph is running this game; Meph's games, at least Supernatural, and I will confirm my N1 PM in this game too, the games and their PMs do indeed contain significant flavor.

S6, 2 fake claims were made, both were decidedly vague/utterly absent about the flavor used.  All we all can do, if Toonyman does or does not provide the flavor he claims he should have, is see if it is believable or not - that is something a player like yourself perhaps cannot evaluate through lack of experience in Meph's games.

All I can do, if Toonyman does provide that flavor, is then provide what I got to confirm the match, as I confirmed that I was indeed blocked and put to sleep.

How many aliens are you postulating here? Because the Harvester doesn't have a tech slot, it's worth noting.

If there's a Xenozoologist then an absolute minimum of 2; there has to be at least one for the abductor to have a chance to fill their Wincon and the abductor is one too.

Despite my assertions of certainty, I'd rather get this right than not.

I'm debating making my own role-claim, because it would bolster my arguments, but I can't be certain to what degree that would violate my own agreement to keep confidence. It's a very thin line I'm walking, and I'm asking a lot of trust in return.

We know we have an abductor role.  All abductors are aliens.  Could Caz have been the Psychic Warden who targeted me?  Psychic Wardens are 'Pure Role-blockers', the action comes before abduction, so this is possible.

Technically, yes, but that involves on my part the assumption that I was lied to. Not an egregious assumption, mind, but one extra thing I have to call into question. And if I'm going to call everything into question, I might just as well fold the hand, and wait out the day.

makeinu and Toonyman:  Have you read the possible roles completely?  Including the Tech picks?

makeinu:  Do you disagree with this information?  I assume you 'missed' it when you were reading the OP, but if you want to explain why you disregarded this info I'm eager to hear it.  Given this information, please explain why you say it is absolutely true that one of either Caz or I must be Scum.

Yes, I read that. I disregard it because of what's been claimed to me privately.

PPE: Argle bargle. That's pretty much exactly what I'd figured. I really don't want to role-claim, it blows everything I've done in private up.

makeinu:  You have blown my mind in multiple ways.  First off, given your behavior in this thread that we call can see, from your early posting weirdness to your later play - 'inconsistant behavior' is a neutral way to accurately describe your posts in this game.  You are saying that not one, but -two- other players have decided to trust you enough to tell you their roles through a private, off the thread means.

Furthermore, in order to believe you I have to believe that you managed to convince -at least two- people to privately tell you their roles.  And that there's something in those private conversations that makes you feel like -you- publicly roleclaiming is going to compromise your agreement to keep confidence - you believe that -your- roleclaim will compromise the roleclaims of others.

That seems greatly unlikely to me, especially given that no one has chosen to support your claim as yet, unless you and they are somehow on the same non-Town faction and thus have proof from Meph that you are indeed allies.

I'm going to point out to you that your

More than one, less than all.

count of who you have spoken with doesn't actually do much to hide who you have been speaking with - unless those players have also been obfuscating on the thread itself.  I have claimed directly I am not one of them.  Tiruin expressed confusion about 'guard' and you're nearly challenging her 'am I roleclaiming?' statement with your claimed PM-gained information - so she isn't one of them.  Superblackcat talked about searching the thread for guard - he probably isn't one of them.  Rangercado is asking about the possibility of you lying about them - she's probably not one of them.  You've stated Caz isn't one of them (and Meph confirms Caz cannot be one).

That only leaves

Toaster - Posted after your PM claim, didn't react to your statement about PMs at all, plus he's your claimed Top Town pick.

Jim - His only comment about it was

Don't expect people to fall in line with what you're arguing because of unknown claims exchanged in private.

Nothing confirmed, nothing denied, the 'unknown claims' statement only notes that to those out of the know, it's unknown.

Sinlessmoon/Toonyman - Sinlessmoon was useless on the thread itself; Toonyman has claimed to be a Psychic Warden on the thread and hasn't posted since you started talking about PMs.

Persus13 - hasn't posted since you started talking about PMs.
Toonyman:  I've taken my vote off of you because my concerns about makeinu exceed my concerns about you, I have no time left, and the day nears its end.  I want your flavor publicly posted and I hope you can do this before end of day and with enough time left that I have a chance to verify it with mine.

In any case, I'll post my PM's flavor before end of day, as close to the end as possible if Toonyman has not yet posted his.  It's possible that work will require me to simply 'drop a post' as fast as I can without having time to read anything posted since this thread.  I can't gaurentee being around and watching to help prevent or break a tie if a compromise vote needs to be made.