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How often have you been actively malicious towards your Dwarves?

Often: The fortress isn't meant to protect them. It's meant to entertain me.
On Occassion: We all need a bit of dark laughter now and then.
When necessary: As a means to an end, I'll kill a dwarf to save a dozen.
Never: The world is dangerous enough.

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Author Topic: Has anyone tried to be a good, moral Overlord?  (Read 22179 times)

gtaguy

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Re: Has anyone tried to be a good, moral Overlord?
« Reply #120 on: February 16, 2014, 02:54:38 pm »

I've been dropping dwarves down onto upright spikes. While it only has a 2/3 mortality rate the skill gain is good.
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Blastbeard

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Re: Has anyone tried to be a good, moral Overlord?
« Reply #121 on: February 16, 2014, 03:14:40 pm »

I won't go out of my way to screw with a dwarf or the fort as a whole unless they really have it coming. normally I look out for my little beard-slaves, but when they piss me off I come down on them like a ton of slade.

-Murdered my legendary armorsmith during a tantrum and got away with it? Congratulations, you just volunteered to explored the deep caverns, alone.
-King just had a random child executed because nobody made him a bone bed? Here, your highness, pull this lever.
-All 200 fort members decided to have a party right after the goblin siege arrives? Uh-oh, looks like the front gate just lowered on its own.
-You're a vampire who just exsanguinated my CMD? Hope you enjoy keeping records for all eternity -- in waist high magma.
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Sprin

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Re: Has anyone tried to be a good, moral Overlord?
« Reply #122 on: February 22, 2014, 10:07:22 pm »

I try to make life as happy as possible for my dwarves.
Nice food and drink nice bedrooms free healthcare silk clothing.
All I ask is that when their children become the age of 12 they are to be sacrificed to the cave monster I traped in a small room in the center of my fortress to please the blood god!
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 06:05:32 pm by Sprin »
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Dyret

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Re: Has anyone tried to be a good, moral Overlord?
« Reply #123 on: February 22, 2014, 10:25:15 pm »

I generally try to keep my dorfs safe and happy up until a point when they do something incredibly stupid and I'm like 'fuck it, suit yourselves then', like that time half my masons drowned themselves in the cistern and everyone started whining about the water tasting funny now. Though luck, you're drinking it.
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flame99

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Re: Has anyone tried to be a good, moral Overlord?
« Reply #124 on: February 22, 2014, 10:37:07 pm »

Well, I tried. I failed when I got fed up with all the children and peasants running around the fort.
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xxseuzxx

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Re: Has anyone tried to be a good, moral Overlord?
« Reply #125 on: February 23, 2014, 10:17:32 pm »

sometimes they just piss me off so i send em to enjoy a meeting with a random minotaur i use to execute retarded dwarfs.
or let them be mauled to death by a group of traped Crundles.
i wonder if is there any thread about how to execute idiots?
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Dwarf4Explosives

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Re: Has anyone tried to be a good, moral Overlord?
« Reply #126 on: February 24, 2014, 01:24:25 pm »

After much...research, my opinion is now that it counts as a megaproject in itself to keep dwarves happy (stopping yourself from accidentally the nobles is in a totally different league, approximately where Toady probably intended the HFS to be). Therefore, time to create a mist generator in the dining room that will probably flood it, along with enough statues to cripple the dwarven economy. Then it's off to expanding each dwarf's quarters till it has another ten spaces minimum.
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WanderingKid

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Re: Has anyone tried to be a good, moral Overlord?
« Reply #127 on: February 24, 2014, 01:32:01 pm »

Keeping dwarves happy is relatively simply, at least on the day to day stuff.

Waterfall + legendary dining room + decent living quarters + legendary food.  Usually covers it.

Dwarf4Explosives

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Re: Has anyone tried to be a good, moral Overlord?
« Reply #128 on: February 24, 2014, 01:40:32 pm »

At least half of that is counteracted by having zombies, demons, extracts of various degrees of toxicity and FB's wandering about. So yeah, it can be kind of hard. Is there a maximum amount of pain the deaths of friends can inflict on a dwarf?
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And yet another bit of proof that RNG is toying with us. We do 1984, it does animal farm
...why do your hydras have two more heads than mine? 
Does that mean male hydras... oh god dammit.

WanderingKid

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Re: Has anyone tried to be a good, moral Overlord?
« Reply #129 on: February 24, 2014, 03:03:35 pm »

At least half of that is counteracted by having zombies, demons, extracts of various degrees of toxicity and FB's wandering about. So yeah, it can be kind of hard. Is there a maximum amount of pain the deaths of friends can inflict on a dwarf?

Well, eventually they'll desensitize to where they won't feel anything anymore.  However, not particularly.  It depends on how you handle your undead and demon woes, though, I guess.

My dorfs usually don't get involved in that mess unless they absolutely have to.  Just not worth the outcome.

Itnetlolor

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Re: Has anyone tried to be a good, moral Overlord?
« Reply #130 on: March 01, 2014, 10:17:50 pm »

I try my best to make things for my dwarves as fine as possible, within their means, and keeping the workforce happy. I do like that I can maintain an ecstatic mood on average across my fort for a good year or two, provided I get most of my (usually passive) defenses up. Be it a perimeter moat (maximize workable region (5 tiles from edge, inward) deep enough to prevent larger megabeasts and such from walking casually by (meaning also clearing up the ramps into less traversible tiles), and having multiple ways into the fortress area. Excellent for delaying sieges, and mostly eliminating thieves.

While at that, I also try to work my mega-sorting clockwork stockpile into the fortress ASAP to make hauling mostly a thing of the past, and make stock bookkeeping easier to manage (as well as getting things where they belong with minimal micromanaging).

Spoiler: Something like this (click to show/hide)

And naturally, I also have ideas for making a sewer, or at least, cistern for my dwarves to sustain themselves safely, while a dining hall is made nearby, or on top of it, and the necessary means to supply it. We can't forget housing. The higher your rank, the better housing you deserve. Kudos to Dwarf Therapist, and DFHacks by falconne, assigning housing is a much simpler task to give the right housing to the right dwarves. Peasants get pretty crap housing (Dormitories or 1-3 tile long housing; minimal), active workers get slightly nicer housing (3-6, if basic worker, larger housing (3x3 or so) if proficient or better, and only the finest for Legendary dwarves; decorated with the finest goods). Nobility has it's own wing within housing, and other parts of nobility, located near their relevant job.

My passive defense is supposed to be in lieu of having an active military (setup the fine goods first; but at as low value as possible as to maximize my time as possible), of course, that also means denying quality to get things working first. After that, everyone gets what they deserve/earned. Basically, everyone in my fortresses earns their happy endings. At least, that's what I also aim for while working on Bloodaxe, when I get around to continuing it.

EDIT:
As for the relevant question, I would be willing to sacrifice one for the many. Of course, if my dwarves are to stick to their loyalty, they don't cower in the face of danger, they'll die on their feet with their head held high. Depending on their valor, they can either get a hole in the ground, or a mausoleum, cremated in a volcano, or made into a set of mugs.

Inspired of course, by this quote:
Mugen: If living means bowing down to the likes of you ugly bastards, then I'd rather die on my feet, with my head held high!
* Jin laughs
Jin: Well said; I agree with him. --Samurai Champloo

EDIT EDIT:
Probably still one of my happiest forts to-date I have made has to be Wavehandle. It supports almost all the claims I've made above. Of course, it being 40d, it lacks minecarts and wheelbarrows, so don't expect to see my filtration system I mentioned before.

http://mkv25.net/dfma/map-5573-wavehandle
« Last Edit: March 08, 2014, 08:26:15 am by Itnetlolor »
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the1337doofus

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Re: Has anyone tried to be a good, moral Overlord?
« Reply #131 on: March 02, 2014, 05:38:59 am »

I won't go out of my way to screw with a dwarf or the fort as a whole unless they really have it coming. normally I look out for my little beard-slaves, but when they piss me off I come down on them like a ton of slade.

-Murdered my legendary armorsmith during a tantrum and got away with it? Congratulations, you just volunteered to explored the deep caverns, alone.
-King just had a random child executed because nobody made him a bone bed? Here, your highness, pull this lever.
-All 200 fort members decided to have a party right after the goblin siege arrives? Uh-oh, looks like the front gate just lowered on its own.
-You're a vampire who just exsanguinated my CMD? Hope you enjoy keeping records for all eternity -- in waist high magma.

You killed the king for having a child executed? He should be revered! A good beardling is a dead beardling.
Wow. I just said that dead children is a good thing. What the hell have you people done to my mind?

I USUALLY try and be nice to my beards. USUALLY. I try and give my dwarves good accommodations when space, time, and resources permit, and they're USUALLY not used as test subjectss/cannon fodder. However, Armok help you if I'm in a bad mood or you do something wrong. To date, I've dropped a squad in magma for not picking up their shiny steel armour, ordered another squad to cavern duty for the same thing, killed jewelers for encrusting a crutch during elf season, and made some stone haulers serve meat shield duty during a siege for partying/breaking during a mass dump. And this isn't counting what I do in Masterwork. So I suppose I'm more a murderous, tyrannical overlord giving the beards a guise of a decent life.


« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 06:37:08 pm by the1337doofus »
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callisto8413

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Re: Has anyone tried to be a good, moral Overlord?
« Reply #132 on: March 02, 2014, 03:01:05 pm »

I try to do the best I can.  Sober, idle Dwarfs are unhealthy Dwarfs.  But I also try my best to keep them happy.  I even glance at random status sheets of Dwarfs to see how upset they may be, maybe lacking a proper bed or something like that.

Now, I am making a 3 tier society, where the Surface Class dwell in crowded houses, crowded diners, and one semi-large tavern, next to noisy workshops.  They spend their time working in the rain, in the sun, and, in the few areas they do work that is underground, the chambers and tunnels are normally plain and uninteresting (but I have done some urban improvements).  So my Fortress, on the surface, comes across as a slum.  I have even found a few falling asleep in the middle of hunting down deer and sometimes only a few blocks from empty beds.

But I still think of myself as a Good, Moral Overload.  They have a ton of food, with great selection, and a good supply of booze.  I keep the many niche artists, like Wax Workers and Bone Carvers, with just enough work to keep them from going totally insane.  Only a few kids have been snatched, all invaders and monsters have been defeated, and the walls, drawbridges and roads have been finished.  There are two hospitals, the livestock are all safe inside the Fortress, we have war dogs and traps at the bridges, and we have broken into the caverns in three areas.  In fact I am thinking that once I become a Capital in lifting the bridges and using the caverns to supply me with wood, plants, water, fishing areas, and silk.  The fact is, the traders really do not bring me the items I want.  Once the Fortress is closed I could really start organizing the three classes, using barrows, and adjusting the military, stockpiles, and so on.

I think of myself as a Good Moral Overlord based TOTALLY from the viewpoint of the Dwarf society within my Fortress.  The Nobles are happy (most of the time), the Stone Class have good, PROPER UNDERGROUND, housing, are protected, my vampires are happy, the City Guard have not killed anybody who didn't need to be killed (like those who go insane) and these Dwarfs only have to go out into the sun when they need to do something with the walls or buildings.

And the Surface class.  Well...they have gotten use to the sun.  True, they are covered in water much of the time but..you know, it keeps them...clean.

And as for the children - well, out of the 250 plus populace, they make up a good 80 or so.  When most of them grow up I am thinking of creating a untouchable class of Haulers.  No other skills.  Just going where they are needed and moving stuff.  And if a few get snatched...well, like the Middle Ages in Europe, that's why you have a ton of them.  In the original Red Riding Hood story she was eaten by the wolf.  Period.  The theme of the story?  Stuff happens and you die.
And to be fair, if a kid can't beat off a thief or goblin ambush well, I doubt he would make a good farmer anyway?  Am I right?  Of course I am right.

Let them run free.  Some of them even work and have been picking up skills from the adults.  What more can you ask for?

I don't go out of my way to kill Dwarfs, all beds are under roofs, and many of the workshops are either underground or also covered with a roof.  I have not tried any mega-projects to create the weapons to destroy the world or to kill off unwanted members of the Fortress or to keep the number of kids down.  Nor have I decidded to make a vast temple or a giant statue or a arena for blood sports.

I don't even have a danger room.

So, to me, by the standards of the society I am running, I am a GOOD Moral Overlord.  No, I am GREAT!  No, GLORIOUS!  And modest too!

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Tryble

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Re: Has anyone tried to be a good, moral Overlord?
« Reply #133 on: March 03, 2014, 06:09:05 pm »

Even with a population of 150+, I make significant efforts towards keeping the entire populace safe and generally happy.

Everyone in the fortress, even the children, get 2x2 rooms, complete with bed, chest, and cabinet (though I'm reconsidering the cabinet what with all the clothing problems). Nobles get much larger rooms with fancy rose gold furniture.
Everyone gets fresh masterwork blue-dyed clothing once every year or so.
There's an extensive fully stocked (including like a half a ton of soap) hospital to take care of stray injuries, of which there are generally few thanks to decent burrow/alert design.
The jail contains golden chains, beds, engravings, statues, prepared food and of course booze.
Mandatory swimming practice for all dwarves to prevent well/drowning accidents.
The dining room contains display cases for the fort's artifacts as well as jewel-encrusted golden statues depicting the most heroic moments of the dwarves.
A portion of unskilled laborers are given apprenticeships where they slowly grow up to legendary craftsdwarves, or training weapons where they'll practice becoming soldiers.

The fortress is a pretty good place to live.  The only real exceptions are children who insist on walking into minecarts/goblins and the one 'injury factory' dwarf who's job it is to get bashed by minecarts so that the doctors can avoid skill rust.
My current fort is about 21 years going, with about half of that number of dead dwarves, the majority of which are old age.
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blapnk

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Re: Has anyone tried to be a good, moral Overlord?
« Reply #134 on: March 03, 2014, 09:17:42 pm »

    I don't think I've ever run a truly morally good fort.

    Sure, I very often have a vast legendary dining room where I display the wealth of the fortress for the population to admire, but it's more to keep them placated so they'll accept the horrors that go on in my fort. Sure, I'm often able to provide them with masterfully produced booze and food, but the most expensive stuff typically gets exported first leaving them to munch on raw plump helmets. Sure, I take care of the military dwarves better, making sure they learn a civilian craft first and hate to send them to pointless deaths, but I give them new names that reduce them pretty much to numbers. Actually, most of my dwarves get names related to how useful they are to me. Smelty the smelter. Anvil the armorsmith. I'm sometimes I give them nice stuff but they are all in the end tools.

    Oh, I usually leave the elves alone but that's because it's too much effort to kill them.

    Now, if I was going to run what I would call a moral fort as a challenge, I would want to embrace the vast amount of individuality each dwarf is randomly generated with. Treat them as individuals not cogs in my vast unstoppable industrial machine. These would be my guidelines:

    • Obviously try to keep them all happy, the usual stuff.
      -Aim to give them individual rooms eventually. And not just mass produced residential blocks either. Legendaries (and possessed artefact creators) should get extra attention based on their preferences and skills. My legendary mason should have masterwork rock cabinets and coffers in the material of their choice that they themself crafted.
    • -On the subject of skills, anyone skilled should be able to practice their craft. Just because there's a better jeweller out there, doesn't mean this dwarf shouldn't be reduced to hauling rock forever like a common peasant. The long term goal would be to have everyone legendary in one craft and their own personal workshop if appropriate.
    • On the subject of peasants, someone's got to do the heavy lifting but that can be distributed fairly. Perhaps craftdwarves should be responsible for their own goods i.e. masons haul rock and carpenters haul wood. Some kind of scheme that isn't a faceless horde of peasants.
    • Justice system that doesn't accidentally let dwarves die of starvation. Make sure the sheriff/captain of the guard and hammerer have compassionate traits. It probably doesn't do anything in game but it's nice to be there.
      -Related, no isolating and detaining miserable dwarves before they've actually committed a crime.
    • Good hospital that isn't designed to lock away and kill those who aren't going to get better. No deliberately injuring dwarves just to train the doctors.
    • Respect mayoral decisions and mandates: unlike the counts and dukes, the mayor is a democratically elected representative of the people. Give them extra good rooms which they get to keep even after they've been replaced.
    • Kill all elves if and only if they complain about deforestation. Yes I'm counting this as a good thing. They've insulted your culture. Remember they eat the flesh of sentient but have a problem with you killing mere plants! But it has to be done right. Make the trading depot as extravagantly decorated as the rest of your fortress. Personally meet with them first and then slaughter them while playing the rains of castomere. Throw all their merchandise into magma, don't keep any of it.
    • Thought should be taken when it comes to burial chambers. All of the military should have personally assigned tombs since they're expected to give their lives for the fortress, as should all legendary civilians.
    • Military and defence is possibly the hardest because I don't think created a squad of unfeeling super soldiers loyal to me personally is a very morally good thing to do. On the otherhand, a passive turling strategy where the enemy is dealt with by endless corridors of traps isn't very !!fun!! (unless the drowning trap works too well and gets out of hand...). So:
      • First of all, only recruit dwarves that already have some military skill or are fortress born children of military dwarves. OR a siege is happening and dwarves will want to protect their homes.
      • Option 1 is to have a citizen militia that spends half it's time off duty and working on trade skills
      • Option 2 is to have a full time squad and treat them as a band of battle loving adventurers. Give them regular assignments into the caverns or fighting wildlife if there aren't enough goblin attacks. Give them individual decorated weapons and never take away equipment they've become attached to. Decorate their barracks with the bones and loot of the enemies they've killed. Create an iron throne out of melted goblinite and decorated with elephant tusk. Don't hide behind walls and go out and meet the enemy when they arrive. While their lives may be more at risk, to me being good means respecting my dwarves individual wishes and these are dwarven warriors! Being nice to full time dwarven warriors does not mean keeping them safe, it means giving them battles that your engravers will make images of and your masons will make statues of them! They will die hero's deaths and be memorialised forever in proper tombs!

tl;dr: To me a good, moral Overlord means letting my dwarves be dwarves rather than forcing them to conform to my utopian dictatorship to pacify them.

I should try this some time.
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