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[Persus13]

Cmega3, get in here and talk, it's been a while.

[Tiruin]

No posts today besdies Tiruin? wow.

Hi Caz, Tiruin's post convinced me you're scum.

[...]

Cmega3, get in here and talk, it's been a while.

Err..Persus, what're you doing?

Oh no guys sorry.
Been extremely busy and up 'til now haven't had much rest.
In fact, I'll have few tim to post over the weekend but I'll try to make up for this as soon as I can.

Please do so D: I've checked the lurkertracker and..well, I see very little effort from you. Wait, sounding too authoritarian. Restating.

Come back soon! And answer those questions we're shooting at you thanks!

Ahh better.

[Toaster]

Oh good; it wasn't just me 504ing all day.

[Persus13]

No posts today besdies Tiruin? wow.

Hi Caz, Tiruin's post convinced me you're scum.

[...]

Cmega3, get in here and talk, it's been a while.

Err..Persus, what're you doing?

What? Since I had the time and opportunity to try and pressure Cmega3 into posting instead of voting my scum pick I took that opportunity and it worked, hopefully. I'll switch my vote back to Caz when Cmega3 posts, hopefully.

[Tiruin]

So to paraphrase, my post convinced you that x is scum, which matches your reads on the populace? Or do you have other suspects prior to my post?

[Persus13]

So to paraphrase, my post convinced you that x is scum, which matches your reads on the populace? Or do you have other suspects prior to my post?

Ahem.

post where I've listed some of my suspects.

[Jim Groovester]

I was totally ready to make a post early this morning and respond to everything. And then the forum 504'd then and through the rest of the day. My motivation was subsequently killed.

I'll get to this later tonight or tomorrow.

[notquitethere]

Tiruin

...Oh wow. I haven't been able to check on the full scope but..that's interesting.


Your basis for suspicion is on a vote pattern? Tunneling (did you check the context?) or the reasons behind the votes?

I've recorded the reasons behind each vote. I know from my wider research that scum general vote for a lower proportion of the players. Caz has only had two votes in the game, and one was a RVS that he kept on to lynch. Nerjin. Max is also very scummy and has been tunnelling throughout the entirety of the game. I'm still deciding which of the two is scummier by this metric.

Also..NQT. Really. Do not link to other parts of the forum unless they're directly attached to how you suspect people--if so, its best to say it in your own words. Why do you do that? :/

Why? It's only against the rules to refer to ongoing games. I like to link to things when I want to show that I'm not just making things up.

Max

Well that runs counter intuitive to anything resembling logic.

If you accept that your intuitions about how a town player might play vig is different from standard, then you have to cede that other peoples intuitions about the best way to play vig might also differ, so you can't claim that somebodies choice of how to play the role justifies any sort of suspicion.

For a start, it's not about how to play a vigilante, Jim mischaracterised what I was asking: it's about how to play a Vig-Cop, which is quite different. Second, there can be reasonable differences about how to play a role and unreasonable claims (if someone claimed town jailkeepers should never act just in case they hit a cop or something of the like I'd be equally suspicious), and I wanted to clear up how reasonable it was. I discovered that most players disagree with Jim on how to play a vigilante-cop, but I've also discovered that the monster hunter's inspect isn't anywhere near as universally useful as I'd thought. I've dropped it as an issue.

All you could hope to achieve from your census is to either gauge how much popular support you might get from a lynch before forcing your case, or some good old fashion role fishing.

That's cute Max, but that exactly what I didn't do. I haven't pressed a related lynch though there was potential support (almost no one agreed with Jim). Town hunting is important too so I don't see what your rolefishing accusation amounts to.

Not if you are a scum priest looking to boost your membership numbers. In such a situation it is very anti-town. Just because somebody was a town player doesn't mean they will be when they resurrect, so this argument that it is pro-town to bring any old town player back is bullshit.

Okay, so it's not impossible that a scum priest would resurrect Nerjin (I think it unlikely) but this possibility says nothing about my actual alignment.

Yea I do. That is why I'm voting you... I honestly think you are scum, is that so hard to comprehend? You are most likely a vampire priest or a vampire lord who had a priest in his opening hand and decided to use their claim to make yourself look like confirmed not-lord. Why else bother with this "Oh look! I left cryptic clues for you!" bullshit? You want everybody to see you like a vanilla townie...

I am vanilla town. 

to protect yourself.

Then you're a lot more dense than I gave you credit! Actually, that's not fair. You're probably scum or third-party put in the unenviable position of having to invent bullshit cases. My condolences! I'm glad you think I'm such a mafia mastermind that if I were a vampire lord I'd have the raw cunning to bread-crumb priest in my second post of the game. I often breadcrumb my roles: I did the same as the pro-town cop in WC3. They're not cryptic clues, but rather confirmation that I'm not just making stuff up as it comes to me later on in the game. The reason I want people to see me as a vanilla townie is, now I've use my one-shot, I am a vanilla townie. That so hard to comprehend?

As for Jims opinion on monster hunters, I might not agree with him, but he is one of the more senior players here, and you are going to say he has "some questionable ideas about how to play effectively"? Interesting...

I think there's a lot of dumb ideas about how to play that float around. A lot of things that get called scumtells but really aren't. Jim may be a loose cannon, but I'm a maverick. It's not surprising that there's legitimate disagreement on how best to play.

Well that seems true for the last game, is it universally true for all supernaturals with vampires?
Also there is still the possibility that there is a normal mafia with a night kill (cultist). There are still too many possibilities to rule him out.

Do you not for a moment think that the considerable unlikeliness amounts to anything? 1/3rd of the players might be hyper-cautious ghouls. Is it likely? No.  


Caz

You're voting me because I ended up going for the same person I RVS'd? O_o How do you come to this conclusion?

Your voting pattern was very suspicious. You parked your RVS vote and never bothered to press anyone else with the threat of a lynch. At what stage did Nerjin shift from a weightless RVS vote to a lynch vote?

So you voted just to break the tie?

My vote on Nerjin was there for quite a few days before the end of the day: I voted him for his lack of visible scum hunting.

Probably won't be able to get a post in early tomorrow, but I hope so. I guess I'm the pick of the day or something. It's probably the best for town seeing as I don't have many useful abilities and am kind of on the weak side of figuring out who's who. It's been fun though, peace and coconuts etc.

What the duck?! Don't just roll over. If you're town then make us reconsider and present a stronger case. If you want town  to win this you can't let mislynches just happen. You impressed me with your engagedness on Day 1. Do you really think Persus is scum? Convince me 

[ToonyMan]

PFP

Due to the Forum basically being down all day, I'm Extending the day to ~5pm Pacific Monday

Thank god.  I'll try to do a post this weekend.

[Imp]

PFP - I'll be posting here later today/tonight too.

[Persus13]

Yea I do. That is why I'm voting you... I honestly think you are scum, is that so hard to comprehend? You are most likely a vampire priest or a vampire lord who had a priest in his opening hand and decided to use their claim to make yourself look like confirmed not-lord. Why else bother with this "Oh look! I left cryptic clues for you!" bullshit? You want everybody to see you like a vanilla townie...

One problem with this argument. Vampire Lord has no other role. And last supernatural the second guy was a Vampire Slave which was essentially Vanilla Scum. So unless we're facing a non-Vamp scum-team,  NQT couldn't be scum if he is a priest.

Well that seems true for the last game, is it universally true for all supernaturals with vampires?
Also there is still the possibility that there is a normal mafia with a night kill (cultist). There are still too many possibilities to rule him out.

The Scumteam leader has always not had an ordinary role (ex. Werewolf Leader, Cult Leader, Vampire Lord). S4 also had a Vampire Slave who was vanilla scum. However S3 started with a Vampire Warlock. Anyway, NQT couldn't be a Vampire Lord.

[Imp]

Anyway, NQT couldn't be a Vampire Lord.

I'll be posting more later, but this caught my eye (again) and I wanted to ask about it.

What makes it certain that NQT could not be a vampire lord, or could not be any other role?  Are you taking his claim of priest given Nerjin's resurrection and the absence of a counterclaim as absolute proof that NQT is priest (and that Leaders don't have other roles?)

The Scumteam leader has always not had an ordinary role (ex. Werewolf Leader, Cult Leader, Vampire Lord). S4 also had a Vampire Slave who was vanilla scum.

That is incorrect.  The only Leaders the other S games have seen that lacked a 'special power' were the Vampire lords of S3 and S4 - who did have a special power, conversion.  All of the other Leaders had special powers and two of them had a town role type power.

S1 had a Werewolf leader with a special power - if lynched he killed a random non-werewolf player.

S2 saw a Scum team (called cult but they killed, flavor humans worshiping the wolf god) who had a leader who was a Fortune Teller.

S5 had a Werewolf leader who was an illusionist.

Now if you want to say that NQT cannot be both a vampire Leader and a priest, I agree with you - vampire leaders appear to always have conversions.  But I wouldn't say absolutely no chance of anything else - And NQT could be lying.  IF he were a vampire leader, he could have a vampire priest in his team.  S4 had a vanilla second vampire (and no third Scum member) but S3 had a second vampire who was a warlock.

Because of this, it is possible for NQT to be vampire, and Leader, and have a Scum teammate who is a priest -which would allow him to 'breadcrumb' priest with complete confidence and an ability to 'prove it' as long as his priest doesn't die before he or she can res someone.

I'm not saying this is likely, but I think you're wrong to 'rule it out' to the point of saying what NQT cannot possibly be - or that Leaders are just and only leaders.




Everyone (and especially Jim, who I know won't answer unless asked directly)  I see something odd about Persus13's recounting of his attack.  It's a detail that makes me believe it happened, because it's downright weird - and I'd like to get people's opinions on that weirdness and what it might mean.

He says that his attacker was described as having great instincts.

Imp

Persus, would you answer this question please?

Persus13:

a masked man with a sword (no other description except good instincts)

Who was described as having good instincts - you or the man who broke in with the sword?

That described the masked swordsman.

How do you look at someone and know they have good instincts?  I can see knowing they have 'good physical trait' (like speed, balance, or skin), or even (because Persus is a knight and thus 'trained') 'good training'.

But what can you see that lets you think someone has 'good instincts'?

Animals have instincts.  Cats, wolves, other predators tend to have reflexes and reactions that lead one to say that creature has 'good instincts' - but I've never heard that phrase used about a human swordsman before.  Human rockclimbers, yes - means they were climbing like an animal.  Typically instincts are something that a person feels, not that a person shows.

This stands out to me as a clue, and the only possible meaning I can think of is 'animalistic' - that Persus13 was attacked by someone with a sword who moved with a high degree of animal-like reactions and speed.

What does everyone think about this clue, is it a clue, and are there other meanings you can think of?

Persus, would you be willing to ask Meph for more detail about what you saw that caused you to notice that your attacker had 'good instincts'?

[Persus13]

Response to Imp.

Anyway, NQT couldn't be a Vampire Lord.

I'll be posting more later, but this caught my eye (again) and I wanted to ask about it.

What makes it certain that NQT could not be a vampire lord, or could not be any other role?  Are you taking his claim of priest given Nerjin's resurrection and the absence of a counterclaim as absolute proof that NQT is priest (and that Leaders don't have other roles?)

1. First of, if NQT was town, claiming priest when he isn't one makes no sense to me at all. Secondly, if NQT was scum, fake-claiming as priest who rezzed Nerjin seems extremely dangerous. So I think that NQT's claim of priest is true.
2. Your taking out of context. Max was partly arguing that NQT could be a Vampire Lord Priest. I was saying that was impossible. Max responded and I clarified.

The Scumteam leader has always not had an ordinary role (ex. Werewolf Leader, Cult Leader, Vampire Lord). S4 also had a Vampire Slave who was vanilla scum.

That is incorrect.  The only Leaders the other S games have seen that lacked a 'special power' were the Vampire lords of S3 and S4 - who did have a special power, conversion.  All of the other Leaders had special powers and two of them had a town role type power.

So I was wrong about S2 and S5. My bad, thanks for clarifying. S1, Werewolf Leader wasn't a town role, so my argument still stands there. In the majority of Supernatural games and in all of the vampire ones, leaders have not had town roles. NQT could be a scum priest, but it's far more likely he's a non-vampire scum priest than a vampire priest.

To clarify on my attack. I hid in a corner, the guy broke into the room, I attacked before he spotted me, but it said he had good instincts and blocked. Then we fought for a while.

I highly doubt I'd get more detail about my attacker from Meph. Unless he attacks again. In which case I'm dead.

[Tiruin]

PFP main post comin up.

To clarify on my attack. I hid in a corner, the guy broke into the room, I attacked before he spotted me, but it said he had good instincts and blocked. Then we fought for a while.

Hmm, now that this is in view, perhaps 'good instincts' meant 'able to find someone hiding after a few seconds in order to cause surprise or disbelief and the victim to assume the person is trained to attack or had the intention to kill rather than an accidental entry'?

[Jim Groovester]

Tiruin, you yap at Caz for not following your case.

I can't follow it either.

I sort of get that it's because he said you hopped targets when you really hadn't. Is that the gist of it?

But he unvoted you.  He explained his reasons and acted on it.  Where are you going with this now?

Is this an objection to this particular line or my case in general? I shall answer both, since I don't think we have the time to clarify

If it's to my case in general: He cast a vote for weak reasons, and then withdrew it. The latter does not excuse the former. Do you think he would have backed off if I hadn't voted him? He says he likes to base cases on genuine reads n' shit but voting for me because I disagree with him about how a vigilante should operate seems to contradict that.

If it's to the particular line: Yes, he did. This was more an explanation of why I thought he was wrong.

This obviously wasn't an admission, and why do you list voting Cmega to tie the vote when he clearly unvoted before day's end in the section you quoted?

Look at it in the context of Toaster's post immediately above it. Toaster blasts him as scum. Nerjin's response is to unvote and say "Yep."

I dispute that it obviously wasn't an admission.

He also made a case against Cmega3 that incidentally also tied the vote. If a person were suspicious of Nerjin and of what he might do at the end of the day, they might see an alternative motive besides thinking Cmega3 was scum.

Riiiight, but I'm not voting you am I?

That doesn't make it all better or magically make me go away.

The only thing that can do that is video games and 504 errors!

HAAAAAAAR HAR HAR har.

I then thought to take some time to reflect on the game and so unvoted, and now I'm of the opinion that he may or may not be scum but he's certainly a loose cannon with some questionable ideas about how to play effectively (which is not something to vote someone for as it's independent of his alignment).

How come you didn't recognize this when you cast your vote?

Also, you never answered this question from Toaster. I only ask because I'm interested in the same information.

NQT:  What do you hope to gain from your "kill versus inspect" questioning?  Same for the "res y/n?"

In general, I'd like to see where you are going next.

I can get asking other people for their opinions. What I don't get is the tabulation of their responses either in favor of or against. The only reason you would do that is if you were trying to prove something. I can only assume it was about your case on me, because what else could it have been about.

Max and Caz did well on the questioning test but have only pressed one lynch case on one person in the entire game. This clear lack of genuine suspicion and reluctance to draw negative attention is not a town trait.

This is, like, so dumb. It emphasizes quantity over quality.

I make no statement of the quality of their cases, but I point out that yesterday you believed Max White was town for pushing his single case. Now you FoS him.

What gives, brometheus?

No posts today besdies Tiruin? wow.

Hi Caz, Tiruin's post convinced me you're scum.

This is a bandwagon vote.

That you quickly reversed.

But still a bandwagon.

Everyone (and especially Jim, who I know won't answer unless asked directly)  I see something odd about Persus13's recounting of his attack.  It's a detail that makes me believe it happened, because it's downright weird - and I'd like to get people's opinions on that weirdness and what it might mean.

He says that his attacker was described as having great instincts.

I don't see this as particularly weird.

Persus13 clarifies:

To clarify on my attack. I hid in a corner, the guy broke into the room, I attacked before he spotted me, but it said he had good instincts and blocked. Then we fought for a while.

If somebody knows that something is wrong enough to block an attack he otherwise doesn't know is coming, I'd describe that as good instincts.

The Scumteam leader has always not had an ordinary role (ex. Werewolf Leader, Cult Leader, Vampire Lord). S4 also had a Vampire Slave who was vanilla scum. However S3 started with a Vampire Warlock. Anyway, NQT couldn't be a Vampire Lord.

Argh, dammit. This is true. If Vampires are our scum team then finding the Vampire Lord is top priority.

For lack of a better target I'm going to continue voting notquitethere, until as such time the existence of a Vampire scumteam is more or less proven, or a more likely target appears, whichever comes first.

This also rules out Persus13. sigh I'm just SOL on all my targets.

Anyways, if the scumteam really is Vampires, then the most effective strategy to find him is to role confirm as many people as not Vampire Lords as possible, and then work within this narrowed-down list.