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[Leafsnail]

When you phrase descriptions of my statements to twist their meaning and change their intent, the fault lies fully with you.

You should be levelling the same accusation at Toaster, then, since he interpreted your post in exactly the same way as me.

[Leafsnail]

here's the problem - why only those pairings? why is the Jim-set excluded? why is the Day-set excluded? if the colors had meanings, then why don't those meaning apply universally? where were the hints to limit them to those specific sets and not to the others?
what about Tiruin? how does she fit in the picture? what do the colors mean to her?

The three pairings all involve obviously coloured players, and form a neat triangle (red-white, white-black, black-red), and each player in those pairs fits the thematic associations of their colour perfectly.  None of the other players have obvious colours, which implies that they are not related to the colour puzzle.

The meanings of colours do apply universally.  White consistently means purity, red consistently means passion/sex and black consistently means death/age.  It's just that not every player needs to have a colour.

Tiruin's puzzle was related to Griffionday, not mafia finding, probably.  It's not like the moderator promised every single player would have a colour.

Your theory is incomplete, and you're having to stretch to make it even include the three sets you're trying to make it include. where's the "red" from the ottofar/web 1 set? how is NQT "black"?

There is no red in the ottofar/web pair, and there doesn't need to be one.  NQT being black was a throwaway suggestion and I'm not sure about it anymore (NQT might just exist so that the players can infer the existence of a lily, in case the mafia decides to falseclaim) but black = age and NQT is old as hell.

why does the "white" swan have "black" hairpins?

Probably because she used to share hairpins with her sister.  I don't see how this point attacks my theory at all.

Please, please tell me you're faking this. look, the decoy flavor does not have a consistent pattern, that is the sign that it is a decoy in the first place! yes it is inconsistent! yes, it is a decoy! THESE TWO FACTS ARE DIRECTLY RELATED. Did or did you not notice that giant red herring speel that was given to Tiruin earlier? did you notice the repeated emphasis on it being crimson? What does irrelevant information being correlated with the color red have to do with the puzzle?

Ok, so you're saying it's a deliberate attempt by the mod to trick us.

The red herring thing was presumably given out because Tiruin was repeatedly investigating things that were irrelevant.  However, notice how sexual in nature that flavour was, what with the jamming of herring into mouths.  So it's relevant to the puzzle because Vector was trying to reinforce the red = passion/sex link, while also telling Tiruin that her current line of inquiry would go nowhere.

If you figured it out during the night, then under what solution was I not already marked as your target for today? Your post said that you didn't think I was scum until during the day.

I didn't know you were scum until during the day when I fully worked out how the puzzle worked.  Before then I merely had a suspicion.

oh, and here's a fun little question for you. - why do you keep assuming in your defense regarding the sheep-kill that you and web knew that you'd be weakened from doing so? Jim became stronger in isolation, Toaster and I were unharmed by the death of NQT, and if you look at web's role PM, there were only signs that web actively wanted the musician dead, despite the fact that web was weakened by the death of sheep. So what is that all about anyway?

I stated in the thread, before N3, that I would probably be weakened if the musician died.  So I clearly knew, and if webadict was my partner I easily could tell him that.  My role PM specifically mentions music and how it strengthened me so it's wholly irrelevant to those other cases.

why do you and web supposedly have such different views of the musician (sheep) and yet toaster and I view NQT the exact same, and jim's followers both revered and protected him. why is your flavor-claim inconsitant with both set's flavor?

So I have a fundamentally different motivation to webadict, which means I'm more likely to be on his team...?  This is a poor argument - we're thematically opposed in the same way as the swan pairing and your pairing, our views towards another person is irrelevant.

[Leafsnail]

Again, I'll ask you: what is the actual puzzle, then?  If this is meant to be an "obvious but wrong decoy" then why did nobody spot it until day five?

[Toaster]

Lenglon:

Ok, Leaf, we appear to have totally different ideas on how a decoy works. What I've been trying to point out is that there are too many examples and yet you can't fit them all to the same rules. case in point, what color is jim?. This is a classic deception technique, similar to looking at a set of inkblots and trying to find a pattern, what their "real meaning" is. the reality is there is no pattern, and it's just a set of inkblots. You're finding images in the clouds. It's one of the easiest ways to make someone work really hard to trick themselves, like saying to someone, "I'll give you a hint before I say the number two", then slowly saying a series of numbers and clapping in a random, unrelated pattern... while shifting your right foot thirty degrees to the side two numbers before you say the number two each time. obvservers will pay very close attention to the obvious signal which contains ZERO meaning and fail to notice the real, far more subtle, one.

stop listening to the random clapping and look for the real signal.

This doesn't apply.  An inkblot is just a blob that you show to people to get them to try to see a pattern.  In this game, Vector said outright that there is a puzzle.

It's a semi-bastard mod.  That means that there's a puzzle, and if Good solves it, then they will win.  But there are other ways, hence the "semi-."  No one has been told what the puzzle is, but it will be easier for Evil to figure it out.  This is, as I said. . . an information game.

And what does evil know?  That they have a BLACK swan, RED shoes, and a lily... that is WHITE.  She blurred it a bit so it wasn't blatantly obvious to the scum team, but the evidence is there (especially once I claimed.)

Toaster, your vote post said you had three reasons:
You idiotically confused

Now you're just insulting me for no reason.

And I already responded to your emotional response comment, and already said that ignoring that point didn't affect the rest of the case.

I'd really love Toaster to talk more :I

As would I, his concerns and yours are the ones that actually matter to me. I'm trying to address Leaf's since Toaster keeps deferring to him, but I'd prefer it if Toaster would speak for himself. Leaf is going to continue to harp at me until day's end because he knows it's the only way his cohort can win this.

Well, considering that I agree with Leaf's interpretation of the puzzle (the puzzle we know exists), and said puzzle clearly marks you as the last scum, there's really not much more I can add to that.

oh, and here's a fun little question for you. - why do you keep assuming in your defense regarding the sheep-kill that you and web knew that you'd be weakened from doing so? Jim became stronger in isolation, Toaster and I were unharmed by the death of NQT, and if you look at web's role PM, there were only signs that web actively wanted the musician dead, despite the fact that web was weakened by the death of sheep. So what is that all about anyway?

Here's another answer- one triple had a strengthening effect, one had a weakening effect, and one had no effect.



Again, you're ignoring one major point- if the color pairs aren't the puzzle, what is?  Oh hey, Leaf already said that.

[Lenglon]

Lenglon:

Ok, Leaf, we appear to have totally different ideas on how a decoy works. What I've been trying to point out is that there are too many examples and yet you can't fit them all to the same rules. case in point, what color is jim?. This is a classic deception technique, similar to looking at a set of inkblots and trying to find a pattern, what their "real meaning" is. the reality is there is no pattern, and it's just a set of inkblots. You're finding images in the clouds. It's one of the easiest ways to make someone work really hard to trick themselves, like saying to someone, "I'll give you a hint before I say the number two", then slowly saying a series of numbers and clapping in a random, unrelated pattern... while shifting your right foot thirty degrees to the side two numbers before you say the number two each time. obvservers will pay very close attention to the obvious signal which contains ZERO meaning and fail to notice the real, far more subtle, one.

stop listening to the random clapping and look for the real signal.

This doesn't apply.  An inkblot is just a blob that you show to people to get them to try to see a pattern.  In this game, Vector said outright that there is a puzzle.

"hey, there's a pattern here, now look at this blob"
it applies directly.
Vector also said quite outright that there is red herring here, and notice that leaf has to switch back and forth constantly between symbolism and literalism in order to explain all the extra instances of colors. basically he's saying that the colors are meaningfull except when they aren't. he also has no explanation for how we're supposed to know to exclude the jim-set and the tiruin-day pair. he's trying to excuse it by saying that the sets he doesn't want to include don't have obvious colors, yet notice that unlike the other sets, we don't have a color in our role name itself. so why are we included? lilies are not just one color.

It's a semi-bastard mod.  That means that there's a puzzle, and if Good solves it, then they will win.  But there are other ways, hence the "semi-."  No one has been told what the puzzle is, but it will be easier for Evil to figure it out.  This is, as I said. . . an information game.

And what does evil know?  That they have a BLACK swan, RED shoes, and a lily... that is WHITE.  She blurred it a bit so it wasn't blatantly obvious to the scum team, but the evidence is there (especially once I claimed.)

Logical falicies 101 - "Hey, stuff A says that B." "What? No, A doesn't mean B." "But if B then A!"
the above statement requires that you assume you already know the answer to the puzzle to learn the answer to the puzzle. that is dumb.

Toaster, your vote post said you had three reasons:
You idiotically confused

Now you're just insulting me for no reason.

And I already responded to your emotional response comment, and already said that ignoring that point didn't affect the rest of the case.

Oi, toaster, read it before responding. that wasn't a rehash of the emotional response comment.

I'd really love Toaster to talk more :I

As would I, his concerns and yours are the ones that actually matter to me. I'm trying to address Leaf's since Toaster keeps deferring to him, but I'd prefer it if Toaster would speak for himself. Leaf is going to continue to harp at me until day's end because he knows it's the only way his cohort can win this.

Well, considering that I agree with Leaf's interpretation of the puzzle (the puzzle we know exists), and said puzzle clearly marks you as the last scum, there's really not much more I can add to that.

so the only reason is that you like leaf's solution? and you are voting me for none of the reasons referenced in your vote post? and you aren't even willing to try to do any reasearch or look for an answer yourself. woo! best confirmed townie play ever!

oh, and here's a fun little question for you. - why do you keep assuming in your defense regarding the sheep-kill that you and web knew that you'd be weakened from doing so? Jim became stronger in isolation, Toaster and I were unharmed by the death of NQT, and if you look at web's role PM, there were only signs that web actively wanted the musician dead, despite the fact that web was weakened by the death of sheep. So what is that all about anyway?

Here's another answer- one triple had a strengthening effect, one had a weakening effect, and one had no effect.

and yet web 2's role pm only hinted that he wanted the musician dead, mine had no hints on how I'd react to NQT's death, Jim's followers also didn't know how their deaths would affect jim, and yet Leafsnail, alone of all the members of all the trios, supposedly knew what would happen.
Leaf was speculating at best, and to be quite blunt, Leaf has had zero interactions with the rest of us all game. He's had every opportunity to lie about his flavor anytime he wanted.

Again, you're ignoring one major point- if the color pairs aren't the puzzle, what is?  Oh hey, Leaf already said that.

At least I'm willing to look for it seriously. you're just taking whatever is handed to you on a pretty platter with a nice crimson sheen.

[Leafsnail]

So, Lenglon, if you've "looked at the puzzle seriously", what do you think it is?  Because I can't see anything except you gathering together places where the game doesn't follow the most rigid and obvious pattern possible and using it as proof that there is no pattern at all.

and yet web 2's role pm only hinted that he wanted the musician dead, mine had no hints on how I'd react to NQT's death, Jim's followers also didn't know how their deaths would affect jim, and yet Leafsnail, alone of all the members of all the trios, supposedly knew what would happen.
Leaf was speculating at best, and to be quite blunt, Leaf has had zero interactions with the rest of us all game. He's had every opportunity to lie about his flavor anytime he wanted.

Except I demonstrated that I had a double vote before, and that I now have a -1 vote.  So you're saying I made something up that just happened to be entirely true?  I have no idea why you think everyone in every trio (although I've said before that I don't think the Jim trio is meant to be equivalent to the colour pairs in any way) has to have exactly the same amount of information.  If Vector did that the game would have been very boring and formulaic.

[Leafsnail]

Also, I'm not switching between symbolism and literalism.  Essentially, every time a colour comes up literally, it is accompanied by the symbolic association of the colour (the only exception I can think of comes in some of the quotes that mention red white and black in quick succession, but those are presumably hinting at the makeup of the mafia team).

You don't have a colour in your rolename to make it so that the puzzle isn't blatantly obvious, especially to the mafia team.  Note that Vector said the puzzle was easier for the mafia team, but not that the mafia team would be able to solve it with no thought at all.  The traditional colours of the plants are still obvious though.  Consider the fact that "lily-white" is an adjective meaning pure-white, for instance.

[Lenglon]

So, Lenglon, if you've "looked at the puzzle seriously", what do you think it is?  Because I can't see anything except you gathering together places where the game doesn't follow the most rigid and obvious pattern possible and using it as proof that there is no pattern at all.

Why lookit that, leaf's being a twit yet again.
See, the reason this kind of manure infuriates me is the way that he tried to disguise his lying ass. the trick here is the base assumptions required to even ask this kind of question in the first place require that I accept where he thinks the puzzle is located in the first place. I gathered together places where the game doesn't match a pattern involving the colors. he is now rephrasing it as a pattern in general. It's not technically a lie, but it is certainly twisting the intent of my words. for me to even to respond to his filth I'd have to respond as though the only place the puzzle could possibly be is in the colors. as I have repeatedly and explicitly stated over and over, I do NOT think the puzzle is in the colors.
This is delibrate, deceptive, and the kind of tactic used by the lowest form of snake on two feet.
Leaf, burn in hell.

[Leafsnail]

So what do you think the puzzle is?

[Lenglon]

So what do you think the puzzle is?

And now he doesn't have a response, because he knows how easy it is to pull up additional examples of him pulling this crap, so he blatantly tries to change the topic.

[Lenglon]

of all the....
permission to edit out the swear in the above statement?

[Vector]

Why lookit that, leaf's being a twat yet again.
See, the reason this kind of manure infuriates me is the way that he tried to disguise his lying ass. the trick here is the base assumptions required to even ask this kind of question in the first place require that I accept where he thinks the puzzle is located in the first place. I gathered together places where the game doesn't match a pattern involving the colors. he is now rephrasing it as a pattern in general. It's not technically a lie, but it is certainly twisting the intent of my words. for me to even to respond to his filth I'd have to respond as though the only place the puzzle could possibly be is in the colors. as I have repeatedly and explicitly stated over and over, I do NOT think the puzzle is in the colors.
This is delibrate, deceptive, and the kind of tactic used by the lowest form of snake on two feet.
Leaf, burn in hell.

Warning: No more of this vitriol from you, please.  Thank you.

of all the....
permission to edit out the swear in the above statement?

Nope.

[Vector]

Wait, were you going for twit?  I retract my warning.  And yes, you can edit that, and that alone, since I have a record of your original statement below.

[Leafsnail]

The topic is what you think the puzzle is.  I am trying to keep us on that topic.

So, what do you think the puzzle is?

[Leafsnail]

I didn't respond to your previous post because I honestly cannot understand it.  In what possible way does the question "what do you think it [the puzzle] is" limit you to my solution?