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Author Topic: The Lonely Prince: He Who Shall Serve  (Read 193510 times)

Leafsnail

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Re: The Lonely Prince, Day Five: Death and the Virgin
« Reply #900 on: October 10, 2013, 03:58:37 pm »

You haven't really given any problems with my solution either, though.
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Tiruin

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Re: The Lonely Prince, Day Five: Death and the Virgin
« Reply #901 on: October 10, 2013, 09:04:07 pm »

Erm, to clarify: His solution offers the notice of you lying about following people (tracker woes ahoy) and then killing back at the times then. For anyone to logically kill TWS, there needed to be two people to attack him: Web is cleared on that note, but the second killer must be someone else who did stuff.

A certain other scum at that time period.

...And most of what LS boiled down to is that you lied and did the kills and that..well, you lied. It has shaky ground to stand on, of course, but comparing the [QUITE_MUCH_EVERYTHING] about certain people (I'm still wondering why you're clearing Toaster/Me if you're scum..perhaps to focus us on LS or you?), it drifts down to you here.

I mean, there were millions of opportunities to attack me and procedurally poke me as scum..erm, you didn't--Toaster didn't. Leafsnail is grumpy but that's how I love his cleverness, so that's why I grilled him beforehand with the power of formatting.

So..back to the matter at hand. Active voice and not passive voice--the answer you gave to my query on 'why you did what you did' is preferably answered not by a hypothetical (it's just gone confusing down south now..I mean, Toaster gives roses. Nobody gets roses. Vector can't confirm it UNLESS an acting person who got...done up by him felt a change in...scenery. {in retrospect, it is quite a good coverstory with quite a simple excuse..and the annoying hook on hilarity}).

Meaning: What's your side to the story? Sure, Leafsnail may probably be lying his head off right now. And sure, he probably would've discussed the puzzle with his scumbuddies over quicktopic, but the acuity of it all (red/white/black in their essential thoughts?) really nudged me to doubt his scumminess.

And unless he's a vote-empowerer, but now with only a -1 vote to either...spacial things like extends/opposing such, then I can't think of any other way to check. His double vote worked. He refused to vote yesterday--while this can be attributed to just hiding it out, I checked vote patterns and Web-Okami's votes have hit him too under curious reason--and that while his 'doing nothing' would be doubtful that he himself did lies to do the kills (replace the thought of you with him back then) it makes little difference given how we don't know who tracked who).

I'd really love to know why you tracked Toaster..like that. Because something's not adding up, if so, and checking back in this state = pressure overload on my part.

Toaster Other than reacting on the current time (which...seems muchly like you this whole game), could you give a detailed read on all three other people, starting from D1? Differentiate Leafsnail from Lenglon is I am excluded in your suspicious list. Why wasn't I in that list, if so? Did my actions pertaining to flavor become a factor in doing such?

Last: Why...did you check where I slept and announce a list of choices to pick?
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Tiruin

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Re: The Lonely Prince, Day Five: Death and the Virgin
« Reply #902 on: October 10, 2013, 09:34:22 pm »

Lenglon: Adding to the list of questions to answer, are you connected with Toaster in some way? Lovers/Brothers or something?
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Vector

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Re: The Lonely Prince, Day Five: Death and the Virgin
« Reply #903 on: October 10, 2013, 09:58:16 pm »

Three votes required for day shortening.

Day end scheduled for Monday at 7:00 (-8GMT).  No more extensions on Day 5 are available.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

Tiruin

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Re: The Lonely Prince, Day Five: Death and the Virgin
« Reply #904 on: October 10, 2013, 10:10:03 pm »

...I won't leave until something's done right. The other girls should know what Horatio said, but at best at least one of them would get something good out of it. I think?

Try to find the Prince and..well, tell him of recent events as well as the corpse in his room.

...Try to be useful on his side.
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Lenglon

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Re: The Lonely Prince, Day Five: Death and the Virgin
« Reply #905 on: October 11, 2013, 12:07:24 am »

Still working on finding the real solution to the puzzle, but I might as well repeat why I think Leaf's "solution" is madness.
he is ignoring large amounts of data, and fabricating much more from tenuious reasons to make his "pattern" look consistant.

here's the full data set according to using the search function on Vector's posts:
notice how much of this Leaf is ignoring? notice how much Leaf had to extrapolate to associate everyone with a color?
he's pulling the entire "solution" he's proposed out of his overly-entitled-arse. I still don't know what the solution is, but I'm pretty sure that it isn't color-based. there's too much inconsistency.

Now then, next accusation of me. Have I been passive? yes. I don't manage being in two different active Mafia games at the same time very well, and I decided early on that I was going to focus on Witch's coven more heavilly than Lonely prince, because it started first and both seemed RP-heavy, and all mafia games are lower in priority to me than ER from the RtD forum. So yes, the amount of effort I've put into this has suffered, and I suppose I should apologize for that.

as for my claim being lacking, go bug vector about it post-game if you're really that caught-up on there being a disconnect. reality is what it is. I follow people around because I feel lacking and don't have any other way to try to help. buzz off.

Leaf's theory of Web encouraging a bus requires us to take for granted that web is bad at mafia. I would expect web to fight hard to live against a bus attempt at MYLO, and just not counterattack very hard. that way he still has a chance at winning there and then, without putting his scumbuddy in any danger. Web had nothing to lose and everything to gain, assuming that he was being bussed, from fighting to survive. so why didn't he?

my flavor from N4 is lacking...
what?
once again, take it up with vector post-game. I don't write the stuff.
and how on earth is it unclear why I followed Toaster N4? I was doing what Jim the confirmed townie asked me to do in order to clear toaster.

Tiruin:
My... story?
I'm a little confused what you mean by that, I thought I answered that concisely back here:
well, N1 I tried to eat dirt with unhappy consequences, and my feet failed at drinking water. N2 my flavor was about the dream Jim gave me, N3 I thought about the implications of eating fruit and debated if it was moral or immoral to do so as a lily (which was kinda weird to read because of my odd speech patterns in my pms), and N4 I had a nightmare of lilies rotting.
My night actions have been:
N1: Follow Soli to Griffday
N2: Follow Toaster to Web2
N3: Follow Web2 to Sheep
N4: Follow Toaster to Tiruin

Why did I follow Soli N1? Vote-shift at end-of-day that normally would have tied the vote.
Why did I follow Toaster N2? I honestly don't remember, its been a long time since then.
Why did I follow Web2 N3? Refusal to claim at mass-claim.
Why did I follow Toaster N4? I was working with Jim's plan.

Toaster, if I'm reading your vote-post correctly, you're voting me because Leaf made me mad, stating that me saying such is an emotional appeal and therefore I'm scum. If you'll take a look at any other game I've played, you'll see that I have been honest about how I'm feeling very consistantly throughout. In fact, Toaster: I challenge you to find a single game of mafia I have ever played where I haven't stated my emotional state or otherwise done something that by your hyper-sensitive criteria is an emotional appeal.
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((I don't think heating something that is right above us to a ridiculous degree is very smart. Worst case scenario we become +metal statues+. This is a finely crafted metal statue. It is encrusted with sharkmist and HMRC. On the item is an image of HMRC and Pancaek. Pancaek is laughing. The HMRC is melting. The artwork relates to the encasing of the HMRC in metal by Pancaek during the Mission of Many People.))

Lenglon

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Re: The Lonely Prince, Day Five: Death and the Virgin
« Reply #906 on: October 11, 2013, 02:09:56 am »

Lenglon: Adding to the list of questions to answer, are you connected with Toaster in some way? Lovers/Brothers or something?
Not as far as I'm aware, but with the way that roles are linked in this game, it could be possible anyway.
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((I don't think heating something that is right above us to a ridiculous degree is very smart. Worst case scenario we become +metal statues+. This is a finely crafted metal statue. It is encrusted with sharkmist and HMRC. On the item is an image of HMRC and Pancaek. Pancaek is laughing. The HMRC is melting. The artwork relates to the encasing of the HMRC in metal by Pancaek during the Mission of Many People.))

Lenglon

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Re: The Lonely Prince, Day Five: Death and the Virgin
« Reply #907 on: October 11, 2013, 02:12:30 am »

wait a sec, um, Vector: has Horatio's hair changed color over the past days?
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((I don't think heating something that is right above us to a ridiculous degree is very smart. Worst case scenario we become +metal statues+. This is a finely crafted metal statue. It is encrusted with sharkmist and HMRC. On the item is an image of HMRC and Pancaek. Pancaek is laughing. The HMRC is melting. The artwork relates to the encasing of the HMRC in metal by Pancaek during the Mission of Many People.))

Tiruin

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Re: The Lonely Prince, Day Five: Death and the Virgin
« Reply #908 on: October 11, 2013, 04:58:56 am »

A few corrections: While, and I agree with your part on the puzzle, that Leafsnail's interpretation lies in the tangible area (x wore y colored z and all that), part of his interpretation also goes along the essence of each color-an intangible characteristic which argues the case against you based on..well, the last people surviving:
me, you, rosegirl and black shoes.

Note: Most of those color consistencies (though..overt, as said) pertain to objects. Wait, will read up and post on the weekend-Sunday my time-ish.

I find it weird that Toaster is receiving human dreams as opposed to the more simplistic lily dreams you're getting.



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Prince feeds Tiruin Red herring in response to questions about why people were invited, it is metioned to be delicious red herrring, but that there is a lot of it.
I got the feeling that it's like such, and that most of the flavor is just deeeelicious flavor, so I'm eating more of it.
Besides, it helps writing skills. And is darn awesome to eat! >:D


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prince's face in the bar is red and puffy
I don't think this is any lead at all. This is sorta like the general idea of someone in great melancholy or distress..like when you cry? Yeah.

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Leafsnail on Day 3: "Could we talk about flowers for a moment, by the way?  We were all wearing red roses at the start.  My role PM mentions me wearing yellow roses later.  Does anyone have any mentions of wearing lillies in theirs?" - notice that yellow is left unmentioned in his theorizing.
This isn't a question to Leafsnail? It sounds like it should be given how..er, how important it was to him before.

...I really find the apparent use of red, white and black really overt.

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horatio still has black hair
It has specks of white...well, I didn't know this given my meetings with him.

Thus leading to the totally IC-me not guessing magic is going on. Which is me speculating.


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as for my claim being lacking, go bug vector about it post-game if you're really that caught-up on there being a disconnect. reality is what it is. I follow people around because I feel lacking and don't have any other way to try to help. buzz off.
Alright, I'll bug you now on what you can reveal.

Are there any formatting inconsistencies that anyone in their normal writer's mood would do to yours? Toasters has a funny small caps on everything, and an all caps on his CLAN CLAN CLAN. The ROSE CLAN is mentioned 3 times in his PM. I have no idea how every exact detail is important in this case.

Next: Are you of simple mind? Is your flavor detailed in a simple manner? Are you easily pleased? Why do you choose to follow people-and how do you follow people? (If it's just 'you follow people', then what are the small details you notice when you follow people?)


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Toaster, if I'm reading your vote-post correctly, you're voting me because Leaf made me mad, stating that me saying such is an emotional appeal and therefore I'm scum. If you'll take a look at any other game I've played, you'll see that I have been honest about how I'm feeling very consistantly throughout. In fact, Toaster: I challenge you to find a single game of mafia I have ever played where I haven't stated my emotional state or otherwise done something that by your hyper-sensitive criteria is an emotional appeal.
...I'd give my word on this, but I'm interested too, on this part, Toaster.



Leafsnail: In the hypothetical scenario of you being scum, why would you direct the focus on Lenglon given that she proved Toaster as innocent? Occam's Razor?

PFP - Yarr exams.
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Tiruin

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Re: The Lonely Prince, Day Five: Death and the Virgin
« Reply #909 on: October 11, 2013, 05:02:37 am »

Leafsnail: In the hypothetical scenario of you being scum, why would you direct the focus on Lenglon given that she proved Toaster as innocent? Occam's Razor? Scum may also be bulletproof..as referenced from...one of the games wherein Vector was scum and had a recruiting option when she was the only one last alive I think its a BYOR?

You attacked Lenglon because she outs me without substantial basis-how is this a scumtell?
You've outed me by basis of logic--elimination process.

Of course, this is all a hypothetical scenario.
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Toaster

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Re: The Lonely Prince, Day Five: Death and the Virgin
« Reply #910 on: October 11, 2013, 07:59:41 am »

Tiruin:
Toaster Other than reacting on the current time (which...seems muchly like you this whole game), could you give a detailed read on all three other people, starting from D1? Differentiate Leafsnail from Lenglon is I am excluded in your suspicious list. Why wasn't I in that list, if so? Did my actions pertaining to flavor become a factor in doing such?

More repetitive work, eh?

Let me handle the instant answers and I'll get back to you on that.

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Differentiate Leafsnail from Lenglon is I am excluded in your suspicious list.

I don't know what this is supposed to say.

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Last: Why...did you check where I slept and announce a list of choices to pick?

The night result PM specifically mentioned you were asleep in a laundry basket.  I figured it'd be a way to double check you while still proving I had actioned you.

As for your question about the case on Lenglon, see right below.


Lenglon:  You're picking up on a single point and trying to make it my whole case.  This is not true.  Also, appealing to your own meta is never a valid defense.  Even if it is true and you remove that point entirely, the rest of the case still holds up.  Don't strawman me.

As far as for your analysis of the color theory, you've taken every mention of those three colors from flavor, dumped them together, and spoilered it, without going in to any detailed analysis.  You're taking a data dump and trying to make it your case- it doesn't work that way.
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HMR stands for Hazardous Materials Requisition, not Horrible Massive Ruination, though I can understand how one could get confused.
God help us if we have to agree on pizza toppings at some point. There will be no survivors.

Toaster

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Re: The Lonely Prince, Day Five: Death and the Virgin
« Reply #911 on: October 11, 2013, 08:34:46 am »

Tiruin:  Honestly, this game I've had trouble following and very poor reads.  You, in particular, were pretty much null all game.  On reading back this last day, I couldn't find any glaring issues with your play, and Scum Tiruin didn't seem to fit the picture.

Leafsnail I have a lot of trouble reading (especially after Prince's Guard and an old Vote Mafia where he totally fooled me), so I get leery around him.  At first I thought his solution to the puzzle was bogus, but as he posted more arguments his version of events seemed quite plausible.

Lenglon... to be honest, I've always had trouble distinguishing between inexperienced players and scum play.  She has been passive all game, and squirrelly with her vote (see D3, in particular.)  Notably today, the calling out of my track without claiming a destination was an error.  Finally, she's not really offering any alternative other than "it's not me so it must be Leafsnail."  Her last theory was just some reasons it wasn't her, not reasons why it was someone else.  In fact, I'm not sure she's posted any strong accusations against anyone besides Solifuge for being tracked to a kill, and that was solely based on a night result.
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HMR stands for Hazardous Materials Requisition, not Horrible Massive Ruination, though I can understand how one could get confused.
God help us if we have to agree on pizza toppings at some point. There will be no survivors.

Leafsnail

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Re: The Lonely Prince, Day Five: Death and the Virgin
« Reply #912 on: October 11, 2013, 11:18:15 am »

Leafsnail: In the hypothetical scenario of you being scum, why would you direct the focus on Lenglon given that she proved Toaster as innocent? Occam's Razor?
I wouldn't.  I'd go for you because then I wouldn't have to go through tonnes of explanations as to how the scumteam did the night 2, 3 and 4 kills (I could instead just say "Tiruin did them").  The only benefit I can see of attacking Lenglon in this hypothetical is that the puzzle points to her.
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Leafsnail

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Re: The Lonely Prince, Day Five: Death and the Virgin
« Reply #913 on: October 11, 2013, 11:28:26 am »

Scum may also be bulletproof..as referenced from...one of the games wherein Vector was scum and had a recruiting option when she was the only one last alive I think its a BYOR?
Huh?  I have no idea what you are talking about.  The two examples of bulletproof scum I would bring up:
- Paranormal Mafia Series: Tough Doppelganger.  It isn't just a "might be mafia" role, it's a mafia only role.
- Xylbot IRC Mafia (and thus KotM too): Godfather is immune to kills as well as inspections.

I don't see how you could regard it as an impossibility when it appears in two of the most popular rulesets.

You attacked Lenglon because she outs me without substantial basis-how is this a scumtell?
Because discarding the possibility of someone being scum without any reasons implies that you don't actually give a shit about who's being lynched, as long as it's not you.  If Lenglon were town, she'd want to think about the question "Is Tiruin scum?" rather than listing you as town for no reason.

You've outed me by basis of logic--elimination process.
That is a true fact.  I don't see how it's at all related to what Lenglon did, which was:

- Toaster is town because he has an alibi
- Tiruin is town because [no reasons given until pressed on it]
- Therefore Leafsnail is scum by PoE

As compared to my

- Lenglon is scum because the puzzle points at her and there are a bunch of other reasons to suspect her
- Therefore Tiruin is town by PoE

It's the second step in Lenglon's logic that was the problem.  Not the basic logical step at the end.
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Leafsnail

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Re: The Lonely Prince, Day Five: Death and the Virgin
« Reply #914 on: October 11, 2013, 11:58:15 am »

here's the full data set according to using the search function on Vector's posts:
Why would the fact that Vector mentions colours sometimes in her flavour undermine my solution to the puzzle in any way?  I've identified a colour triangle made up of three pairs, with each person in those pairs clearly representing their own colour thematically.  That's entirely different to just having words mentioned sometimes.

Leafsnail on Day 3: "Could we talk about flowers for a moment, by the way?  We were all wearing red roses at the start.  My role PM mentions me wearing yellow roses later.  Does anyone have any mentions of wearing lillies in theirs?" - notice that yellow is left unmentioned in his theorizing.
That's because there are no yellow roles in this game.  Also yellow isn't a colour with fundamental, cross-cultural meaning in the same way as red, white and black are.

You list of mentions containing colours is feeble and you know it.  My role has "black" in the name.  You and Toaster are flowers that are white and red, and you are tied deeply to the symbolism attached to those two colours (as are your roles - you yourself said your motivation relates to purity, and Toaster's relates to sexuality).  Having colours mentioned once in a flavour PM isn't remotely the same.

I like how you spend the rest of your post showing examples of Vector hammering home that the colours are important.  The Prince dressed in black to mourn the death of his suitors.  The brides wore white dresses which are universally known as a symbol of purity, but decided to wear red roses as well to show their sexual availability.  Don't you find the fact that Vector kept mentioning these three colours and associating them with their traditional meanings interesting?  As if, say, she was hinting as to the nature of the puzzle?

Instances of red, white, and black in vector's posts:
pre-game:
Prince dressed in black as girls arrive
prince's bedchambers have red drapes and white sheets
Nice catch, I guess Vector hinted at the puzzle pretty early.

"they were asked to wear matching white dresses and satin slippers.  And on the first day, by their own mutual decision, they all wore crowns of crimson roses in their hair."
...
"They fussed over who had said they would wear white and who would not, but after the second evening all who could wore black." only one had horatio tie a black ribbon about her neck.
"We understood each other, our mutual fears, and marked ourselves with mourning clothes as I always had--if only with the suspicion that more would die, and we could no longer bear to see the red against the white."
...
"His eyes were red with crying (I had so seldom seen him cry, he who I knew all my life), his face was white as ash, and in his black clothes he looked like a ghoul." speaking of horatio's reaction to griffday's death.
...
Soli had black bruises, red-rimmed eyes, and a white shirt.
So do you think it's a coincidence that Vector keeps putting red, white and black together in the flavour?  Because to me these seem like hints that red, white and black are the crucial colours in this game.  Particularly the first two - the white clearly represents purity, the black clearly represents death and the red roses represent sexuality.  The blood is less obvious, but think about the symbolism of white dresses being stained red with blood for a bit.



additionally, this is where it is mentioned specifically that evil will have an easier time solving the puzzle than good will, and yet none of leaf's conclusions have to do with the flavor of ottofar's or web's role PMs. If such was the case, then why isn't anything from that showing?
That's a really strange thing to say, considering that reading webadict's role PM (white stained with red) is what caused me to realize the symbolism of red and white (although if I had read the flavour more carefully I probably could have done so when the Prince used the same metaphor) and thus start my chain of reasoning.  In any case, the scum would be able to solve my proposed puzzle much more easily, because they know three roles (two of which have colours in their names), and could probably see the colour pattern very quickly just for that reason.  The fact that the Black Swan knows of a white partner means that the others could infer that maybe they have coloured partners too.

Both flipped mafia roles also hinted at the symbolism of their colours pretty heavily, and I'm guessing yours does too.

jim had a "sopping red wound" in her chest.
Are you seriously telling me that this line goes against the "red represents sex" theory

griffday the hopefull prince has a lock of bright red hair.
I guess this is worth addressing - yeah, it's possible that other players like Tiruin had some kind of colour puzzle associated with them too.  But it doesn't matter now.

notice how much of this Leaf is ignoring? notice how much Leaf had to extrapolate to associate everyone with a color?
he's pulling the entire "solution" he's proposed out of his overly-entitled-arse. I still don't know what the solution is, but I'm pretty sure that it isn't color-based. there's too much inconsistency.
I'm honestly baffled as to how you could compile a post full of examples of the moderator emphasizing the importance of red, white and black (often together, and associated with their symbolic meanings), then concluding "Actually, these colours don't matter at all".

Leaf's theory of Web encouraging a bus requires us to take for granted that web is bad at mafia. I would expect web to fight hard to live against a bus attempt at MYLO, and just not counterattack very hard. that way he still has a chance at winning there and then, without putting his scumbuddy in any danger. Web had nothing to lose and everything to gain, assuming that he was being bussed, from fighting to survive. so why didn't he?
Your theory of web not encouraging a bus requires us to believe that webadict is worse at mafia, because in that theory webadict made a suicidal claim for absolutely no reason.  You can't attack my theory if your theory's explanation is worse.

In any case, if you don't want scrutiny to be placed on your partner, laying down and dying isn't a bad option.
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