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[Zangi]

Since israel is neither the source nor the reason for this hate and violence, nothing that israel will do (Beside vanishing all together) will solve it.

This is my main issue here.  You trying to absolve Israel of any part in perpetuating the status quo.  As if Israel's actions actually does not have any effect on how things are in Palestine.

[smjjames]

My first thought after reading that (or one of the thoughts) was 'fatalistic much?'  Also seems like you're not considering any middle ground, just the extremes.

[burningpet]

A fair middle ground would be for the palestinians to officially abandon their right of return which means settling their already settled "refugees" and recognize israel as a jewish state in exchange for israel recognizing the West bank and Gaza as a palestinian state and withdrawing back to the '67 lines. seems like more than a fair exchange. Now go convince Hamas, Fatah, the PA and UNRWA to do that.

[Sheb]

While I agree that no Palestinians should be resettled inside Israel proper as part of a peace deal, I disagree about the Jewish State thing.

First of all it doesn't make sense from an international law point of view. No country on Earth recognize Israel as a "Jewish state". Why should the Palestinian do so? Secondly, it would be a a big show of the middle finger to Israeli Arabs and non-Jews. The Israeli leadership knows very well that the Palestinian will never do so, but keep insisting on it because they don't really want peace.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Until the question of whether Israel is a secular democracy or a Jewish theodemocracy is settled, which must come from within, no advancement on this point is possible.

[burningpet]

So, a palestinian state is ok, but a jewish state is not?

It makes perfect sense from an international law point of view, especially since this was how israel was defined in 1948 through the U.N partition plan and most countries, except the barbaric muslims countries, already recognized Israel as it was established, and it was established (and its written in our declaration of independence) as a jewish state. it makes perfect sense from the other point of view in which jews have been persecuted throughout all history, so we have a right to have a safe haven. really, except for anti-semitists and/or pro muslims, there should be no reason to not want a jewish state for jews (Well, there's also the crazy radical jews who think israel should not exist until the messiah return so they go side with iran and hezbollah).

Just like there is an Irish state (And many other culture/ethnicity/clan based states), so there is a Jewish state. just as it would be right for the Kurds to have their own state and just as it would be right for roma people to have their own state.

Why shouldn't palestinian agree on it? if they back down on the refugees nonsense, what difference does it make for them if its a jewish state or not and why should the world care what the palestinians has to say about it? should we also let palestines be a deciding factor whether the kurds also get a state of their own? maybe they should also decide if scotland should be independent? maybe they could also decide the immigration policies of the U.S?

don't fool yourself, their decline of recognizing it as jewish state is solely connected to their ridiculous refugees nonsense, no other reason. absolutely none.

And of course israel will keep insisting on it. this was the sole reason for this state to exist and its still is. if the palestinian demand that we cease to exist so we could have "peace", then this is not a reasonable demand and this is not true peaceful aspirations.

Until the question of whether Israel is a secular democracy or a Jewish theodemocracy is settled, which must come from within, no advancement on this point is possible.

It doesn't matter because even if israel was a complete secular democracy, this definition would still be important for the ethnic implications of judaism. judaism is not just a religion. i am a secular, atheist jewish and i will still be persecuted when the next idiot decides all the world problems are the jews fault. jews need and deserve a state of their own. history has proven so repeatedly.

[Sheb]

Ok. First of all, a de facto Jewish state is okay. While I think establishing Israel there in the first place was a mistake (I think the logical thing would have been to give the Jews part of Germany. Maybe Königsberg/Kalilingrad. I think Europe lost out a lot by loosing its Jews, and Yiddish might have had a better shot at survival. Anyway, end of the derails), people have now been living there for generations and have a better claim than the descendant of expelled Palestinians.

What I object to is requiring a Palestinians state to recognize Israel as a "Jewish state". It's a provocation. Try to picture the UK demanding Ireland recognize it as a "Protestant State".

Also, as you've said: it doesn't really matter what the Palestinians recognize Israel as. Israel should define itself, and no one else has to do that job.

[burningpet]

But its not about the definition itself, its all about how the definition affects the unique palestinians refugee stance and their false "right of return" which is crucial in ending this conflict. We know it and they know it and that's why they won't agree to it anytime soon.

[Wolfhunter107]

That's one of the most racist thing I've heard in a while.

[Dutchling]

That's one of the most racist thing I've heard in a while.

How is just stating that anything other than picking a fight?

[burningpet]

That's one of the most racist thing I've heard in a while.

No, you are.

[Sheb]

Bullshit. Even if they don't drop their demands, just don't let them in, ti's that simple. You're just grasping at straws to avoid facing the fact that Israel is an exansionist, colonial state and that this is the only real obstacle to peace. It's possible to live with a neighbour that hates you. But it's not possible to live with a neighbour that invade and occupy you.

[Leafsnail]

A fair middle ground would be for the palestinians to officially abandon their right of return which means settling their already settled "refugees" and recognize israel as a jewish state in exchange for israel recognizing the West bank and Gaza as a palestinian state and withdrawing back to the '67 lines. seems like more than a fair exchange. Now go convince Hamas, Fatah, the PA and UNRWA to do that.

And also the biggest obstacle to that plan, the Israeli government.  Do you really think they'd just pull out decades worth of settlers like that, or leave them in a Palestinian state?  The idea that they'd ever agree to '67 borders is frankly ludicrous.

Also you keep putting scare quotes around refugees.  Why?

[Sheb]

Because a lot of the Palestinian 'refugees' are people whose great-grandparent have been ethnically cleansed back in the days but haven't been displaced recently. By the same logic, a third of the German population would be made of 'refugees'.

[LordSlowpoke]

Because a lot of the Palestinian 'refugees' are people whose great-grandparent have been ethnically cleansed back in the days but haven't been displaced recently. By the same logic, a third of the German population would be made of 'refugees'.

i haven't been aware of a conflict on the scale of the second world war that has been caused by palestinians that demanded reparations in land be paid to other countries

could you kindly provide any sources of such a thing occurring so i may educate myself