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Author Topic: Gaming Pet Peeves  (Read 519167 times)

Neonivek

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Re: Gaming Pet Peeves
« Reply #4380 on: April 19, 2017, 09:46:08 am »

Yep you got it right! The final object in that room full of objects is... The Floor!

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Niveras

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Re: Gaming Pet Peeves
« Reply #4381 on: April 20, 2017, 04:39:39 am »

Speaking of MMOs that tries to pretend that they are single player games, there is a trend that I rather dislike.

Making any given player character out as the main hero of the story, rather than a small part of a big whole.

An MMO experience will, quite necessarily, involve a lot of people, and taking part in that is the point of playing an MMO, surely? So, trying to portray every player character at the same time as the main hero, on which everything depends, will clash quite fiercely. That illusion will break down right quick, particularly if it only relies on the player not thinking about it at all.

Surely, it is a safer bet to make the player character simply one of many, part of the crowd? Particularly noteworthy players will no doubt stand out nonetheless, for their actions and their standing in the community. I would rather be a freshly baked adventurer, taking part in a great, big fantasy/sci-fi Volksturm much greater than I, than have the game portray me as personally responsible for every good deed in the land, while I am supposed to ignore that I am merely hero number 327 who have done that this afternoon alone. Player co-operation ought to be the goal, joining with some friends and doing something greater together.
I suppose it is more difficult to write fulfilling content where your contribution is still somewhat anonymous to the effort as a whole, than it is to simply write a hero portrait, but it would be better to at least attempt it. Not to mention, there are opportunities now for a lot more dynamic content, or player-made content, as what Eve Online has lived on for nearly one and a half decade now.

The Elder Scrolls Online tried to do both, in a way. Having a story centered on one character, while also having the player hero being just one amongst many heroes present at the same time in a strange time bubble. Silver star for effort, but still. A Dragon Break is high-grade plot spackle, and must be applied carefully and wisely. This was not either.

This effect is kind of why I believe MMOs would make supreme examples of single-player RPGs. But not as they stand, they would require retooling in at least two ways:

In most cases, while solo content is soloable, it is still built around the concept of long-term group fights. So you have a full (or several) bars of abilities even if you only use one or two to kill one or two or a small group of enemies at a time when you're soloing. I'd rather see this retooled so that what constitutes raids today would require, in this mythical MMO-as-SP-RPG, a broad use of abilities and skillful play. Depending on the complexity of the fight in its MMO incarnation, may require assistance from notable NPCs (but hopefully you would be the deciding factor; too often NPCs tend to be the actual protagonist while you and your raid were merely the cannon fodder/help). Meanwhile, what constitutes solo play today would be you - champion and demigod- waltzing through absolutely hordes of enemies laying waste to everything your path. Think Dungeon Siege 2 with a mod to increase mob density: just hordes of armies of monsters throwing themselves into your meatgrinder.

The second point is to actually change the world when you're done with a region. I haven't played many MMOs these days but those I have don't seem to do this very much. Warcraft has a bit of it with its phasing but it still seems to keep the general layout of the map the same, and it is simply the enemies and objects that populate the area that change depending on your phase (your progress in a quest line). So far as I'm aware, GW2 didn't even have this. Not sure about other third-generation MMOs like Wildstar or BDO (both of which I've only played for maybe 5 hours each).

Of course, none of this would ever happen. MMOs have a far extensive (if shallow) breadth of content precisely because of the massive funding they have, and the requirement to continually pump out new content. The only way this myth could be satisfied would be to have an MMO retool all of its content - changing and adding bonus content based around a true single player experience - at the end of its life. But if it is at the end of its profitable life, no company is going to spend the resources it would be require to give this concept a proper attempt. Even and especially emulators try only to replicate the original experience, because they still want the game to based on those the social requirements (however successful one might argue those social aspects were), not rebuilding it as a single player game.

I think the players get annoyed quite a bit when someone implies that they don't actually matter. I remember there being constant whining about how the plot is revolving around "GM NPCs", even though the players always deal most of the damage and are the ones actually winning the fights. So, the "you're the hero" is supposed to alleviate at least a part of that. I dunno if it actually works.

Yeah, [raise hand]. It's a matter of gameplay and story segregation. What the players do in the raid is just gameplay, the actual story that played out is revolves entirely around the NPCs. There is a balance to struck here - in EQ, NPCs did not exist in any of the raid I did (to speak only of those raids that became something more complex than "a dungeon boss that did more damage and had more life that a normal dungeon boss enemy"). In early WoW, this was the same. I'd rather see a return to that - success purely by the work of the heroes, and acknowledgment (via flagging or other means) that your character played a part even if they weren't the sole hero responsible. Comparatively, a lot of the raid bosses in WoW were defeated not by the players necessary, but just buying time for a NPC to do what it needed to. And the NPCs are, canonically, the only one who get credit. If players' efforts are acknowledged it is only through reward of shinies, not in the story.

I could try to debate more but I am out of time, it will depend on where this goes when I get back.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 05:12:23 am by Niveras »
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itisnotlogical

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Re: Gaming Pet Peeves
« Reply #4382 on: April 20, 2017, 06:11:27 am »

This effect is kind of why I believe MMOs would make supreme examples of single-player RPGs. But not as they stand, they would require retooling in at least two ways:

In most cases, while solo content is soloable, it is still built around the concept of long-term group fights. So you have a full (or several) bars of abilities even if you only use one or two to kill one or two or a small group of enemies at a time when you're soloing. I'd rather see this retooled so that what constitutes raids today would require, in this mythical MMO-as-SP-RPG, a broad use of abilities and skillful play.

As somebody who actually plays and tries new MMOs fairly regularly, I don't think you're giving the moment-to-moment gameplay enough credit. Doing solo content in WoW as a mage, I was always using ice abilities to control enemy movement, and in particular as a fire spec mage using certain combinations of abilities to max damage output and maintain mobility. It involved staying out of range of melee attackers, silencing casters, polymorphing really dangerous mobs, using my abilities wisely so they're not on cooldown at an inconvenient time, and generally "a broad use of abilities and skillful play." That's not even talking about PvP, which I was never very good at, or any of the other classes that I played only briefly.

STO is an even better example because your weapons and abilities all have firing arcs. So not only do you have typical cooldown and resource management, you also have to actually face the enemy without overshooting them to keep all your weapons in range. Ships only have certain numbers of fore and aft weapon slots, so you have to decide if you want, say, all your torpedo launchers on the front, which means higher damage output while you're facing an unshielded enemy but less if you're facing away. Oh, and shields are directional too, and you have control over which direction is prioritized for recharging. That's why mobility denial and shield drain abilities are so important, but again, those have very limited firing arcs which means you have to actually be in position to get the most usage out of them.

I'm sorry I kinda ranted, but a well-designed or even basically functional MMO isn't just running your toon into a group of mobs and mashing on the highest-damage abilities. It might appear that way in the early game of many MMOs, but most games probably wouldn't seem very fun if you only looked at the smallest playable segment.
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Arbinire

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Re: Gaming Pet Peeves
« Reply #4383 on: April 20, 2017, 09:16:10 am »

I have been playing MMO's since they were called MUDs and I will say...I disagree wholeheartedly with the idea that they shouldn't make the player "an observer to the plot".  That was the entire basis for the genre for 25 years, until people whose gaming experiences were mostly single-player which drove the "you're the hero" narrative came into it.

The vast majority of MUD's and a sizeable portion of MMO's are based on existing IP's and the appeal was existing in these worlds with these heroes and villains you loved.  Being overshadowed by "gm characters" wasn't ever an issue until the single-player, consolization mindset seeped into the genre.  It was part of the appeal, that you're existing here in these worlds too, with others who love it and you're apart of this community.

The whole narcissistic, "I should be the hero, I pay my $15 a month, and I should have everything everyone else has too!  And I shouldn't have to rely on anyone else!" mindset is exactly what has killed the genre.
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AzyWng

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Re: Gaming Pet Peeves
« Reply #4384 on: April 20, 2017, 09:36:17 am »

The whole narcissistic, "I should be the hero, I pay my $15 a month, and I should have everything everyone else has too!  And I shouldn't have to rely on anyone else!" mindset is exactly what has killed the genre.

To be honest, it's kind of messed up the idea of having a team-based or objective-based shooter, too.
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Neonivek

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Re: Gaming Pet Peeves
« Reply #4385 on: April 20, 2017, 07:01:12 pm »

Not sure MUDs are exactly the best counter example...

What with being free and that you don't encounter the GM's super special awesome characters that are so much better than you... That much

NOR are you subservient to the GM... Like say... DCUO (for the majority of it... and in the second mode...). Nor does the GM character really show off how much more special he is than you.

Nor do MUDs ever pop up a window and go "Sorry, that is waaay too awesome for you. Only the GM's personal Mary Sue can do that"

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If you want a proper "Observer to the plot" example...

Other M

If you want it done right...

Valkyrie Profile... to an extent... (they never really follow up on it... Which is a real shame)

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If you want a MMO doing "you are just an observer" wrong...

World of Warcraft Frozen Throne...
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 07:06:55 pm by Neonivek »
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Rolan7

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Re: Gaming Pet Peeves
« Reply #4386 on: April 20, 2017, 11:20:42 pm »

Maybe MUDs have changed since I played them (and ages ago, ran a really lame one with some buddies) but I don't remember them making me feel like the main character.  Any more than, say, Zork 1 - you're just a brave adventurer who happens to find a lot of cool stuff while adventuring, not some mythic hero destined to save the land.

Specifically, I don't really remember MUDs even faking the concept of story progression very much.  Everything was centered on your character changing, not on you changing the environment.  Whereas in modern MMORPGs (based mostly on the ESO free weekend) each player sees NPCs in different locations, depending on personal progression in the epic story.  Which means you see a lot of random congregations of shmucks staring at each other, talking to an NPC who is somewhere else (for you).

I think MMOs can do fine with either approach, but personally I would rather not be treated as THE hero in an MMO.  It feels... condescending, maybe.  The presence of other heroes is blatant.  Even if I'm soloing, I'm soloing in a social environment rather than loading up a classic JRPG or something.  It's fine to be an adventurer, or a hero, or even just a notable warrior...  I don't need unnecessary gameplay-story segregation that pretends I'm special, it defeats the purpose.  Just my preference, though, and I see how people could get used to that.
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Neonivek

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Re: Gaming Pet Peeves
« Reply #4387 on: April 21, 2017, 04:07:18 am »

A lot of MMOs don't make you feel like the main character either.

But I mean there is a HUGE gulf of difference between you being another shlub, albeit a particularly powerful shlub, and just sort of observing events.

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---

You know for videogames and morality I think there are generally two ways to go.

You either want to be morally agnostic or you want to be morally karmic

If you mess up which you game is... You lose your audience.

The Sims 4, for example, is Morally Karmic... But it needed to be morally agnostic.

While most other games are Morally Agnostic when they need to be more Morally Karmic (beyond an ending blurb)
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 06:25:26 pm by Neonivek »
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Neonivek

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Re: Gaming Pet Peeves
« Reply #4388 on: April 25, 2017, 07:11:10 pm »

I think what peeves me off about a lot of games AND THEIR COMMUNITIES!!!

Is how antagonistic they are towards you learning the game.

For example in a typical game you play it and learn the hints and tricks as you go along, these skills build up.

In a lot of games now if you attempt that you will be wasting your time, lose valuable resources that take weeks or months to build up, and the community itself is highly antagonistic towards people who do not look up every bit of information on the game.

DOTA 2 is the worst in this respect for community (Not that MOBAs are particularly well known for not being elitist piles of garbage) especially since the gameplay is somewhat split up into multiple incomprehensible bits (I hope you know where everything is at all times! OR want to play versus CPU forever), but the worst in terms of game mechanics right now is probably Hearthstone... Then again Hearthstone does this in order to get actual factual money from you... so... Typical "Freemium" / "Play to win" mechanics.

I just flat out do not like games that punish you for actually trying the game out yourself... OR that occlude the vital information and require you to look it up.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 07:13:42 pm by Neonivek »
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Rolan7

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Re: Gaming Pet Peeves
« Reply #4389 on: April 25, 2017, 07:26:10 pm »

https://xkcd.com/1053/
But yeah, screw MOBA communities in the general sense.  My friends and I enjoyed Demigod a lot.  If I feel the urge to play a MOBA, that's what I'll go for.
If they want to play a different MOBA, then sure, but screw the online scene.  I have no interest in climbing those ladders.
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She/they
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Quote from: Fallen London, one Unthinkable Hope
This one didn't want to be who they was. On the Surface – it was a dull, unconsidered sadness. But everything changed. Which implied everything could change.

Parsely

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Re: Gaming Pet Peeves
« Reply #4390 on: April 26, 2017, 01:54:45 am »

I have no interest in climbing those ladders.
Glad I'm not the only one.
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Neonivek

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Re: Gaming Pet Peeves
« Reply #4391 on: April 26, 2017, 02:04:48 am »

What I find weird about a lot of those games is they rely on inexperienced and/or underpowered players to sort of function.
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CABL

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Re: Gaming Pet Peeves
« Reply #4392 on: April 26, 2017, 02:48:11 am »

@ Dota2 community

I don't play Dota, but from what I know about the game is that it's pretty much populated by Russian 6-12 y.o foul-mouthed boys, who constantly scream "Мамку ебал!" (pronounced: Mam-koo ebal, Translation: "(I) fucked your mommy"). I'm embarrassed as a Russian, but I know that there are plenty of foul-mouthed foreign kids, so it kinda reduces embarrassment.
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Much less active than I used to be on these forums, but I still visit them on occasion. Will probably resume my activity in full once Dwarf Fortress will be released on Steam.

AzyWng

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Re: Gaming Pet Peeves
« Reply #4393 on: April 26, 2017, 08:45:35 am »

I'm embarrassed as a Russian human, but I know that there are plenty of foul-mouthed foreign kids, so it kinda reduces embarrassment.

FTFY

Or maybe that's just me projecting my own sentiments.
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Neonivek

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Re: Gaming Pet Peeves
« Reply #4394 on: April 26, 2017, 01:56:54 pm »

Ok here is one that isn't a problem or mistake... But this is the Pet Peeve thread and this is a pet peeve.

Holofoil / Shiny cards

I actually think they look particularly bad and make the artwork that much more difficult to look at.

I actually just prefer plain cards.
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