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[Willfor]

I believe I know the conversation you are referring to Willfor. There was someone advocating concentration camps for the religious, but it wasn't MSH. Who it was? I don't recall. But it put me in the undesirable position of defending religion.

Huh. I'm usually pretty good at remembering who said what, but since I'm pretty sure I'm not perfect, I'm going to have to reevaluate. I may try to find it later, but to be honest, I'm more curious how my brain managed to associate it with MSH than who said it originally. Possibly something like this.

Anyway, I'll stop derailing this now.

Turkey's a pretty important subject here.

[10ebbor10]

Pretty sure Cthulu is not involved. Not enough madness and tentacle horrors.

[XXSockXX]

The most outspoken critics of Tayyip were Islamists [last I knew]. You know, ousting the extremists in the military so they don't coup back to Islamic Republic status. So this line of conversation is all a bit confusing to me.

Actually it's the complete opposite. The military has traditionally been the strongest advocate of secularism in Turkey. They are mostly Kemalists, followers of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, who founded modern Turkey and modelled it after western states, especially France. In the past, when the military believed the government strayed away from kemalist values, they staged coups. Not to promote Islamism, but secularism.
While Turkey has a very secular constitution, huge parts of the population are still religious. Initially, when AKP was formed, it was welcomed as a democratic way to balance strong secularism and moderate Islam. However since they are the strongest party, they have become more and more conservative and are now pushing the country too much into a religious direction for the taste of many.

Just as a note, but with 327 out of 550 seats, the AKP has a majority in parliament.
Also interesting of note, of all parties, the AKP has the most female parliament members (Percentage and total)

Which makes their relative paucity of genuine support all the more concerning, I would think. 39%/49% of the vote (local/national) hardly seems like it should entail getting 60% of the government. And this is with the government essentially buying and coercing votes.

Not that this particular quirk, where groups end up running countries despite the majority of the population being opposed to them, is somehow limited to Turkey. The vote-buying is obviously a bit more of a concern.

This is actually pretty normal in countries without a 2 party system (I think Turkey has over 70) and not necessarily something to be concerned about. You very rarely get governments with absolute majority. Vote-buying, if it exists, is something else.

[Foamybeard]

Quit trying to derail the thread with your stupid
Just because Occupy was mentioned, it doesn't mean you have to jump in and start an argument about it. Let this be about Turkey, okay?

1) I'm not trying to derail the thread, i was engaging in discourse with someone who brought it up.
2) Stating fact isn't trying to cause an argument.

Anyway...

I don't even really advocate the destruction of religion, I just think it's going to start dying out in the coming years as it becomes ever-less relevant to society and that this will be a good thing.

Faith and Religion will never die out. It might not be "Relevant" to us, but it hasn't died out yet, and religion has existed since Man first asked "Why do the seasons turn?"

Anyway, I digress.

I'm really, really, looking forward to more news about Miklagarğr from Leatra. Reading the news from someone who is there, and not some Armchair revolutionist typing up a Article for ABC or some other news station is... Refreshing.

[Owlbread]

How are the Kurds responding to the protests, out of curiosity?

[10ebbor10]

Well, usually the multiparty system requires a coalition with a majority. Unless you work with FPTP, which is a terrible system.

Besides, isn't Turkey basically a 2 party system? You got 2 big parties, and then some spare change.

I don't even really advocate the destruction of religion, I just think it's going to start dying out in the coming years as it becomes ever-less relevant to society and that this will be a good thing.

Faith and Religion will never die out. It might not be "Relevant" to us, but it hasn't died out yet, and religion has existed since Man first asked "Why do the seasons turn?"

Depends. I will not talk about this, since it's a derail.

[Nadaka]

Quit trying to derail the thread with your stupid
Just because Occupy was mentioned, it doesn't mean you have to jump in and start an argument about it. Let this be about Turkey, okay?

1) I'm not trying to derail the thread, i was engaging in discourse with someone who brought it up.
2) Stating fact isn't trying to cause an argument.

It is when you masquerade a blatant falsehood as a fact.

[XXSockXX]

Well, usually the multiparty system requires a coalition with a majority. Unless you work with FPTP, which is a terrible system.

Besides, isn't Turkey basically a 2 party system? You got 2 big parties, and then some spare change.

A coalition is only needed if no party has an absolute majority. With 326 out of 550 seats you have an absolute majority (more than half of the seats) and don't need a coalition.

There are 4 parties currently in parliament in Turkey, and many minor parties not currently in parliament due to the 10% threshold.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

While Turkey has a very secular constitution, huge parts of the population are still religious. Initially, when AKP was formed, it was welcomed as a democratic way to balance strong secularism and moderate Islam. However since they are the strongest party, they have become more and more conservative and are now pushing the country too much into a religious direction for the taste of many.

Wasn't it just last week that Islamists were protesting Turkey's [Erdogan's] support of the Syrian rebels? I swear I've heard all sorts of things reported from Turkey about anti-Erdogan sentiment coming more from the fringe right than anywhere else. As always, could easily be explained by the filter of Turkish media applying to outside reporting.

Turkey may not be a police state, but it's definitely a repressive secular government, no matter who heads it at which time. Just got to look back a decade or two to see the precedent laid before them. Treatment of dissenters has always been heavy handed and misguided in long-term thinking. A bit alarming considering all the NATO arms and money they get.

Just hope Erdogan capitulates. He can still be rich and powerful even without his post, and he knows it. Wouldn't be a bad time to restore some faith in their democratic government, either. Dude's been around too long and he shouldn't be spreading gasoline on an already dry tinderbundle. Turkey is still a democracy but it wouldn't be too hard to see a street protest taken over by the extreme elements and go the way of Egypt.

Edit:
I have a proposition: Turkish people are dissatisfied with their government, Greek people are dissatisfied with their government. Say fuck it, combine nations, and see if the resulting parliament will be more or less corrupt than before. I'd hedge bets that it'd be marginally better. The nationalist parties can join forces too, gee, everyone will be happy.

[XXSockXX]

Wasn't it just last week that Islamists were protesting Turkey's [Erdogan's] support of the Syrian rebels?

Erdogan may be fundamentalist, he's not islamist in a radical way, there are people much more islamist than he is, who think he is too moderate.

Turkey is still a democracy but it wouldn't be too hard to see a street protest taken over by the extreme elements and go the way of Egypt.

No. The situation in Turkey is different, it is much more westernized, democratic and secular than Egypt has ever been.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

No. The situation in Turkey is different, it is much more westernized, democratic and secular than Egypt has ever been.

The extremists in Egypt [a tourist destination, ally of US, major beneficiary of US funds] were ostracized and found an umbrella group many Americans hadn't cared heard about until the revolution where they came out of the shadows with their rural support to blindside the otherwise secular opposition, the opposition that helped give the protests their strength. Now we have a Sharia Law constitution in draft. Tunisia is also a good example of how things can go awry post-revolution.

I have more faith in the Turks but just because they have an established democracy doesn't make it any less vulnerable to the same caveats of others in the ME; the influence of extremes.

By all means, Erdogan is a dick, but I hope this larger protest doesn't get hijacked by people with ulterior motives.

[XXSockXX]

The extremists in Egypt [a tourist destination, ally of US, major beneficiary of US funds] were ostracized and found an umbrella group many Americans hadn't cared about until the revolution where they came out of the shadows with their rural support. Now we have a Sharia Law constitution in draft.

Just because Americans don't care or know about something doesn't mean it does not exist (no offense intended). If you live in Europe (especially in a country with immigrants from the region) and follow the news you get a much clearer picture. There are many huge differences between Turkey and Egypt, Turkey has it's own particular set of problems, but there is no such thing as a strong islamist movement (as in Sharia-Law-type-radical),  in Turkey. Actually I would almost compare it to the situation in the US, where "Middle America" is strongly religious whereas the coasts (in Turkey the urban centers) are much less so.

[Foamybeard]

Quit trying to derail the thread with your stupid
Just because Occupy was mentioned, it doesn't mean you have to jump in and start an argument about it. Let this be about Turkey, okay?

1) I'm not trying to derail the thread, i was engaging in discourse with someone who brought it up.
2) Stating fact isn't trying to cause an argument.

It is when you masquerade a blatant falsehood as a fact.

Alright, so occupiers were not shitting on cop cars, nor did they have to have separate areas for women who were afraid of being raped because there was several incidents, right? And the fact that almost all of the Occupiers were in the Upper Middle Class (Or even the Upper Class Themselves). No one protested outside of John Kerry's house, despite the fact that he put up laws to punish the wealthy (Heavy Luxury Taxes) and then avoided them (Leaving his Yacht outside of Massachusets to avoid paying the taxes he set up). No one protested outside of Martha's Vineyard, where the true 1% go. (Nancy Pelosi, Obama, Kerry again.)

People only protested outside people who weren't guilty of being the 1%, such as stockbrokers, or people who worked for certain companies deemed unworthy to have profits. That is why I disagree with Occupy in America, because it was hypocritical, with people picking and choosing who was unworthy.

You can't fight fact by saying "THATS A LIE" and "This is how I feel!"

[Digital Hellhound]

Nobody gives a shit about your Occupy bull. You can use the old Occupy Wall Street thread for it, okay? That goes for anyone who even for a moment considers replying to either side here.

As this probably will have no effect and just clutter the thread up more, sorry in advance.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

People only protested outside people who weren't guilty of being the 1%, such as stockbrokers, or people who worked for certain companies deemed unworthy to have profits. That is why I disagree with Occupy in America, because it was hypocritical, with people picking and choosing who was unworthy.

Good thing there's a topic to complain about it. I promise. I've done it. Now, back to the topic.