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[Frumple]

Islam might sort of contribute to an attitude hostile to the west because afaik, Islam moreso then other religions, makes a lot of promises about wealth and physical things in return for faithfulness, so the disparity in prosperity, technology and material things between the middle east and the western world is likely a source of envious contention in many believers.

Other then that, it's more about secularism vs mysticism. Modern civilization was based primarily on the former, science and rational thought. Religion is seen more as a minor personal decision. This simply isn't the case in many places in the world, especially the middle east.

Ah... actually, from what I understand, the largest contribution (though not the only, of course) to the whole hostility towards the west thing has been, well, the west. Quite a few of the western powers (the states especially, but we're far from alone there) having been taking successive and sometimes quite large dumps all over that entire region for... quite a while now. S'a lot of folks over there with seriously good reasons to be royally pissed off at a fair number of the (post) industrialized powers

From what I've been poking at Islam scripture lately that mixed with parts of the Quran probably isn't helping, yeah. As I mentioned earlier, it's got a bit of a thing re: oppression, and as a kind of general thing the western world has been fitting itself pretty damn comfortably into that niche. It's kind of a sailed boat, but it's a interesting thing to wonder what would have happened if the period between the British Empire (or earlier... t'be honest, I'm entirely certain where the mostly one-way buggering began.) and now wasn't filled with quite so many examples of us westerners meddling where we seriously shouldn't have been.

[DWC]

Ah... actually, from what I understand, the largest contribution (though not the only, of course) to the whole hostility towards the west thing has been, well, the west. Quite a few of the western powers (the states especially, but we're far from alone there) having been taking successive and sometimes quite large dumps all over that entire region for... quite a while now. S'a lot of folks over there with seriously good reasons to be royally pissed off at a fair number of the (post) industrialized powers

From what I've been poking at Islam scripture lately that mixed with parts of the Quran probably isn't helping, yeah. As I mentioned earlier, it's got a bit of a thing re: oppression, and as a kind of general thing the western world has been fitting itself pretty damn comfortably into that niche. It's kind of a sailed boat, but it's a interesting thing to wonder what would have happened if the period between the British Empire (or earlier... t'be honest, I'm entirely certain where the mostly one-way buggering began.) and now wasn't filled with quite so many examples of us westerners meddling where we seriously shouldn't have been.

I was thinking about just Islam in particular, not so much just the middle east.

 The Middle East has certainly seen an extraordinary amount of western meddling. This is mostly due to geopolitics that root in the Israeli/ Palestinian issue. The west won't leave the Middle East alone so long as it aligns it's interests with Israel, and the pissed off Islamists won't leave the west alone until we leave them alone. The USA in particular has interests in Israel because of irrational religious reasons, so this works both ways.

Trying not to derail the thread further off course with a discussion on that mess though.

[shadenight123]

All books were written by men.
All books are faulty.
Unless God whoever he is comes down and tells the truth to all, all that is written is faulty of not being objective.
You can have faith, but faith is subjective.

To use as a pretext holy books, either for accuse or defense is flawed.
Refrain from using it and you will find that madmen kill, no matter the book of laws used.

Personally, I prefer Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 edition as a textbook.

[Frumple]

I was thinking about just Islam in particular, not so much just the middle east.

There is that... but one of the questions earlier in the thread was just how prevalent the enmity you find in those areas are outside, y'know, the places western powers have been screwing about. I'd actually be fairly curious about that myself... I know Indonesia's a fairly notable trading partner with the states, at the very least, and some cursory searchin' shows that th'relationship there is currently fairly stable (though perhaps a little strained due to recent-ish events. Go figure ). Not entirely sure how badly we screwed with 'em in the past, though

Seems to be roughly similar story with India and Bangladesh, and between those three you've got a good third or so of the world's Islamic population. Bout the only nation roughly in the same weight bracket, so to speak, is Pakistan (which has a good 10th and a bit of world's population) and, well...

That'd kinda' be my question. How's things going outside of the areas they've got really damn good (non-religion based) reasons to be pissed off, and how much of the group in question is in those areas?

[DWC]

I was thinking about just Islam in particular, not so much just the middle east.

There is that... but one of the questions earlier in the thread was just how prevalent the enmity you find in those areas are outside, y'know, the places western powers have been screwing about. I'd actually be fairly curious about that myself... I know Indonesia's a fairly notable trading partner with the states, at the very least, and some cursory searchin' shows that th'relationship there is currently fairly stable (though perhaps a little strained due to recent-ish events. Go figure ). Not entirely sure how badly we screwed with 'em in the past, though

Seems to be roughly similar story with India and Bangladesh, and between those three you've got a good third or so of the world's Islamic population. Bout the only nation roughly in the same weight bracket, so to speak, is Pakistan (which has a good 10th and a bit of world's population) and, well...

That'd kinda' be my question. How's things going outside of the areas they've got really damn good (non-religion based) reasons to be pissed off, and how much of the group in question is in those areas?

Afaik, there are Islamic fundamentalists in Indonesia and the Philippines and they do sometimes see citizens of these countries in with the foreign jihadist fighters in places like Iraq and now Syria. Historically there has been little animosity between Indonesians and the USA before 9/11, but with the wars and the internet and all that, there is plenty of anti-western sentiment to be found there now, I'm sure.

[GlyphGryph]

Actually, Indonesia is generally very Pro-US. At least as much as most of Europe. They were particular fans of Obama for obvious reasons. Yeah, they still have their problems (lots of corruption, quite a bit of sectarian strife), but we've had Americans in the ranks of the fundamentalists in Iraq and Syria too, it's good to remember.

[Bauglir]

Oh, no, he's actually right to use those in the context he did. I made an unfounded assumption. It's a minor one, but it bears pointing out that when I said Islam's sacred texts do not say, at all, to do this, I was wrong.

[Max White]

The thing about holy texts is that nobody actually reads them. I have spoken to a christian creationist who had never read the bible. They literally thought this was the greatest book ever written, had one in the draw next to them while they slept, and at no point had they ever found the time to give it a read.
Some people thing think this is a bad thing, I think it is great! It means that if you want to turn a violent religious sect into a peaceful one, you only need to start quoting a different chapter in their holy book.

I assure you, some time in the future, somebody will hold up a bible and quote some verse in support of gay rights, and nobody will ever think about all the homophobic shit in there.

[Urist McDwarfFortress]

Thing is, like any other religion, there's contradictions. Islam has parts emphasizing peace, other parts promoting war. The bible does this, too.

What's happening at present is you're using quotes which are similar to quotes from other religions.

Very true. Which is exactly what I was saying. All religions teach some evil and some good. But I think that this particular evil which Islam teaches is worse than the evil taught by any other major religion.

The thing about holy texts is that nobody actually reads them.

Not entirely true. Fanatics read them, well, religiously. And the Quran has some verses commanding followers of Islam to kill non-believers. Fanatics DO read that, and they DO kill people because of it.

[Max White]

Not always. A lot of fanatics just listen to what ever their religious leader tells them without actually checking the books themselves.
Also, assuming one does read the Quran  they will also find a lot of passages about peace and not being a jerk. What passages they choose to listen to and what they disregard depends on their disposition, not their book.

[Urist McDwarfFortress]

Also, assuming one does read the Quran  they will also find a lot of passages about peace and not being a jerk. What passages they choose to listen to and what they disregard depends on their disposition, not their book.

Sure. But that doesn't forgive the book, or the religion, for including those horrible passages in the first place.

Lets pretend Islam is a single man, who tells his followers to go out and murder those people who do not follow him. He also teaches some nice things about giving to the poor and stuff. He's still a horrible person. And he should still bear some responsibility if one of his followers obeys his order to murder his neighbor.

[misko27]

You know, Islam, Christianity and Judaism are all Abrahamic faiths, which all three recognize pretty commonly, so perhaps it's only directed at heathens?

[Urist McDwarfFortress]

You know, Islam, Christianity and Judaism are all Abrahamic faiths, which all three recognize pretty commonly, so perhaps it's only directed at heathens?

Usually, but not always.

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

(People of the Book = Abrahamic religions)

[misko27]

Jews are people of the Book for certain. They even mention the Old Prophet's Abraham, Moses and Jesus.


And Another thing, I learned today I can go to Jewish heaven/afterlife/world-to-come (Jews are SO unclear about that) without being Jewish.

[Max White]

Lets pretend Islam is a single man, who tells his followers to go out and murder those people who do not follow him. He also teaches some nice things about giving to the poor and stuff. He's still a horrible person. And he should still bear some responsibility if one of his followers obeys his order to murder his neighbor.

You know, lets not pretend Islam is a single man, because that would be prejudice against a lot of people based on the association fallacy. Islam is not a single man, it is many men and women with many different ideals.