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[GlyphGryph]

And even if Islam is worse on average (which is something I consider perfectly possible), that doesn't provide much in the way of support for any of the arguments made on the basis of how bad it is.

[MonkeyHead]

And, again, the argument isn't so much "Islam is great!" so much as it is "Islam doesn't really stand out as good or evil compared to other mainstream religions". What that conclusion actually means will vary from person to person, depending on their views on mainstream religions. It's the double standard that most of us are arguing about, I think.

+1 to this - no need for me to say any more until the subject changes.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

"And the retribution for an evil act is an evil one like it, but whoever pardons and makes reconciliation - his reward is [due] from Allah . Indeed, He does not like wrongdoers." (42:40)

Not so dissimilar from "any eye for an eye" really is it?

Yep, Christianity has an eye for an eye principle. You may interpret that as "you must take an eye for an eye" or "you have a right to take an eye for eye, but no more..."  I know that Islam and Christanity have some shared Dogmas. It's not what I asked for

I asked for something similar to specific "love your enemies" verse... another challenge find something like "If someone strikes you on the right
 cheek, turn to him the other also." or "Blessed are the peacemakers, for
 they will be called Sons of God"

GlyphGryph

Stop mixing Christian  sects and mainstream Islam. Compare Islam to large respected churches, not some crazy guys

Saudi Arabia is the center of Islam, you can't call them some minority.... Saudi Arabia has half of population as second class citizens, large chunk of population supports violent terrorism

Also we have Shia Islam, it is  centered in Iran. Khomeini is not some guy followed by 1000-sized "church" he is a leader for the majority of Shia Muslims

[Frumple]

"Blessed are the peacemakers, for
 they will be called Sons of God"

"[...]whoever pardons and makes reconciliation - his reward is [due] from Allah. [...] (42:40)

You... actually responded to that post. That pretty much specifically says "Peacemakers are rewarded by God."

Spoiler: also hey (click to show/hide)

There's

[GlyphGryph]

Saudi Arabia is the center of Islam, you can't call them some minority.... Saudi Arabia has half of population as second class citizens, large chunk of population supports violent terrorism

Indonesia has more than TEN TIMES as many muslims as Saudia Arabia. Why in the bloody hell would we consider Saudia Arabia the center of Islam? It's barely a blip on the radar, numbers-wise. In fact, Saudi Arabia has fewer people than Uganda, which I was highlighting as a comparable country run by Christian religious fanatics. How can you claim that Saudia Arabia is the center of Islam? It's got no more basis than my saying that Uganda is the center of Christianity. Uganda has 32 million Christians (about half Catholic, half Anglican), how is that not representative of Christianity but Saudi Arabia, with a mere 24 million, is the "center" is Islam?

Stop mixing Christian  sects and mainstream Islam. Compare Islam to large respected churches, not some crazy guys

Stop mixing Islamic sects and mainstream Christianity, then? Why do you get to treat Muslims as one monolithic group defined by their worst subset, while I don't get to do the same? You even bring up that you're doing it in your last post, almost explicitly, by referencing Shia's as if Shia's were somehow representative of Islam as a whole.

Even the largest group, the Sunni's have about as much in common as "Protestants" do. None of the stuff you've been talking about is okay in mainstream Islam. None of it! So why do they all get tarred with the same brush?

So seriously, if you want to talk about "Mainstream Islam", you want to talk about Indonesia, India, and Bangladesh, since that is where you will find most of the muslims and the places where mainstream islam is a reality.

Saudi Arabia and Iran are, to Islam, what Uganda, Ghana and the Congo are to Christianity.

If those three countries are nothing more than Sects and Minorities, then so is pretty much the entire Middle East.

[Frumple]

Think he was talking about Mecca more than population, GG. Which would probably roughly equate to saying Jerusalem is the center of Christianity as a whole, I think.

[Hiiri]

To original post: I don't know what to call myself, really. I enjoy seeing diversity in the community. I think culture/religion/sexuality/whatever ought to be everyone's private matter. Secularism is one of the few things I adore about the US.

I'm an anti-nationalist. I don't care what color of skin people around me have, what religion they belong to. I don't care whether I'm called Finnish, Scandinavian, European or Terran. People around me are not automatically my brothers and sisters.

That said, I think some ways of behavior are better than others, and should be actively endorsed by the government. While 'western world' is far from perfect, it does plenty of things right. Scientific method is better than blind belief. Healthcare is better than whispering in your hands. Preparation for drought is better than preparation for rain dance.

In a way, I see myself as a uniculturalist, but at the same time I think all religious and cultural backgrounds should have equal access to the community, but not equal representation.

I'm just really confused. Help!

[GlyphGryph]

It sounds like you've been afflicted with being a reasonable person. I'm afraid there's no cure bar a several years-long indoctrination period, steeped in an ideology. We do have several flavours to choose from though, if you'd like to pick.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Alternatively, drinking a proper mixture of bleach and drain cleaner will instantly inflict sufficient brain damage to cripple your rational mind forever, leaving you easily manipulated by anyone.

[misko27]

The best option remains a fist applied directly to the forehead however, taken hourly till symptoms subside.


Try it NOW for a Free 30-day period! We've never had any complaints for the people who could still speak intelligebly

[Urist McDwarfFortress]

You guys are mixing up Muslims with Islam, and Christians with Christianity.

Muslims and Christians are both generally good people who are trying to deal with a faulty, ancient moral code.

Islam and Christianity both teach people to do evil. (Sorry, if you're holy book tells you to stone anyone who leaves the faith, your religion is teaching evil. Deal with it. Please!) I think that Islam generally teaches MORE evil than Christianity does, because their Quran contains the commandment to wage war and violence against all non-Muslims. Out of the whole mess that is religions and their moral codes, Islam is the worst of a bunch of bad options. It has the greatest potential to be used by evil men to cause violence, because violence is built in, even ordered by, the religion.

[Hiiri]

The best option remains a fist applied directly to the forehead however, taken hourly till symptoms subside.


Try it NOW for a Free 30-day period! We've never had any complaints for the people who could still speak intelligebly

Sweet, I can't wait to return the product unused.

[Bauglir]

(Sorry, if you're holy book tells you to stone anyone who leaves the faith, your religion is teaching evil. Deal with it. Please!)

Then by that same logic, surely a holy book that tells you to give aid to the poor, your religion is teaching good. Maybe it's more complicated than you're making it out to be.

their Quran contains the commandment to wage war and violence against all non-Muslims.

No, it doesn't. And, beyond that, it specifically instructs Muslims to tolerate Jews and Christians.

[DWC]

You guys are mixing up Muslims with Islam, and Christians with Christianity.

Muslims and Christians are both generally good people who are trying to deal with a faulty, ancient moral code.

Islam and Christianity both teach people to do evil. (Sorry, if you're holy book tells you to stone anyone who leaves the faith, your religion is teaching evil. Deal with it. Please!) I think that Islam generally teaches MORE evil than Christianity, because their Quran contains the commandment to wage war and violence against all non-Muslims. Out of the whole mess that is religions and their moral codes, Islam is the worst of a bunch of bad options. It has the greatest potential to be used by evil men to cause violence, because violence is built in, even ordered by, the religion.

Yeah but religion is only part of culture, of something that forms a value system or the beliefs of a person. Turkey is a Muslim-majority nation and it's still aligned with western values, for the most part, because it's a developed country. Other Muslim majority countries and their people are bluntly put, quite backwards in their mentalities and outlook and it reflects on them.

Islam might sort of contribute to an attitude hostile to the west because afaik, Islam moreso then other religions, makes a lot of promises about wealth and physical things in return for faithfulness, so the disparity in prosperity, technology and material things between the middle east and the western world is likely a source of envious contention in many believers.

Other then that, it's more about secularism vs mysticism. Modern civilization was based primarily on the former, science and rational thought. Religion is seen more as a minor personal decision. This simply isn't the case in many places in the world, especially the middle east.

[Urist McDwarfFortress]

(Sorry, if you're holy book tells you to stone anyone who leaves the faith, your religion is teaching evil. Deal with it. Please!)

Then by that same logic, surely a holy book that tells you to give aid to the poor, your religion is teaching good.

Certainly. Religions teach both good and evil.

their Quran contains the commandment to wage war and violence against all non-Muslims.

No, it doesn't. And, beyond that, it specifically instructs Muslims to tolerate Jews and Christians.

A quick skim through the Quran easily yields 4 explicit commandments to kill any and all non-Muslim:

Quran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip Allah's Purpose. Lo! they cannot escape.  Make ready for them all thou canst of armed force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more unbelief and religion should be only for Allah"

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
(Jizya is the tax on non-Muslim according to Sharia law. Historically, it is Islam's way of financially forcing conversion) ("People of the Book" are the other Abrahamic religions, namely: Jews and Christians)